Was it wise to call?

    • adoubleuk
      adoubleuk
      Basic
      Joined: 18.08.2017 Posts: 1
      I'm new to this forum and would like to ask a question regarding a hand which caused much discussion at our club last night. I apologise if it seems rather basic, but no consensus was reached, so any answers from other posters here will probably add to the discussion!

      Game: low-stakes no-limit cash hold-em (NOT tournament). Minimum entry 200 euros, max 1000.

      Player 3 (small stack) goes all-in with 49 euros. Player 5 (medium stack with 410 euros) calls. Big blind (also small stack) goes all-in with 50 euros, 5 adds a euro to complete his call. The other players have folded.

      The board is dealt and is rainbow, so no flush possible. Also, no straight emerges.

      Hands: BB has AK offsuit, 3 has pair of queens, 5 has AJ suited. The board shows a queen on the turn, so player 3 wins.

      Subsequent discussion is at two 'levels', the first of which is mainly opinon, but leads to the second, which is mathematical. But revolves around one basic question: was player 5 'wise' to have called with his suited AJ? (Opinions here welcomed!)

      But then the maths. Player 5 claims his odds (although not the best) were reasonable to win, based on his overcard and his two cards being suited. Big blind says that the odds were greater of pairing either his ace or his king than those of Player 3 completing his set. Player 3 (who's won) disagrees with both of them!

      What do you think? Should player 5 have called? Would you have called in such a context, given the superior stack size? (Ignore the possibility of other players deciding to participate in the hand: or don't, if you wish!)

      Any views on this (preferably with a mathematical explanation, though keep it simple, please!) eagerly awaited, and thanks in advance.
  • 9 replies
    • la55i
      la55i
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 7,620
      First I have to ask what were the blinds. Stack sizes do not matter that much if we don't know that. If the blinds were 1/1 Player 3 shipped with 50bb but if they were 1/2 he had 25bb. A big difference.

      (Ignore the possibility of other players deciding to participate in the hand: or don't, if you wish!)
      This is something we can't ignore. When deciding what to do we should know what kind of players, how many and how big stacks are behind. We can't just call if we know there is one aggressive guy with a deep stack behind.

      To see if Player 5's call was reasonable we would have to put Player 3 on a range and then we can use equilab. But to put him on a range I think we need some info on him and how many big blinds we had.

      Big blind says that the odds were greater of pairing either his ace or his king than those of Player 3 completing his set.
      This is absolutely true. With QQ the guy had 2 outs to hit a set but with AK the guy has 6 outs. But why does this matter? QQ is ahead of A high preflop. QQ guy has to hit only if BB hits his A or K first. If I remember correctly QQ is about 55/45 favorite here.

      So basically with this information it is very difficult to answer your question.
    • coldchurch
      coldchurch
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.02.2013 Posts: 281
      If it's the first time Player 3 does this, it's a bad call with AJ. If he's done it before, it's good call, AJ is way in front of Player 3's range. The fact that Player 6 wakes up with AK, is just bad luck.
    • SedAS
      SedAS
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.08.2012 Posts: 1
      He should have folded unless he is rich.
    • cueclubdub
      cueclubdub
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.04.2012 Posts: 21
      Shoulda folded
    • pahismail
      pahismail
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.01.2013 Posts: 170
      You bluff, right? This is not happen, right? - Juha

      Then answer,

      POKER: I was call but i'll try to fold.
      MATH: Ace enough to call against smaller pair (KK to 22) three times if villain is 7 x min. shorter than you, right?
    • Botaniker
      Botaniker
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.11.2010 Posts: 15
      fold
    • CucumbaMan
      CucumbaMan
      Silver
      Joined: 13.10.2017 Posts: 124
      la55i is right, we do not know the size of blinds, which is quite important here.

      I'd fold here, because I'm pretty sure I'm behind here in a pot with 3 other players.
    • DerErklarbar
      DerErklarbar
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.01.2018 Posts: 10
      Agree with almost everything la55i said. I would only disagree with the blindsexample. there is not much of a difference in blindsize of 1/1 and 1/2 with this big openraise, because with 1/1-blinds you need 49% equity and with 1/2 blinds you need 48,5% equity. The big difference would be comparing these to 5/10-blinds. There you need only 43,5% equity.

      As la55i said you need to make assumptions about player3's range and we can help you out so much with that cause we got no information about it.
      On 1/2-blinds player 5 need to put player 3 on a handrange of something like best 12% hands (for example 55+, A8s+,ATo+, KQo, KTs+,QJs which is depending of the image and the position pretty reasonable) or more loose.
      On 5/10-blinds player 5 got a call if he puts player 3 on best 9% hand or more loose (for example 77+, AJo, ATs, KQ, KJs+ or more loose).

      No its your time to decide what his handrange is.

      The last thing that we didnt look at are other players like BB who get in the potbehind. But we cant analyzr anything about cause we got no information about the positions or the playstyle of the players behind player 5.

      Hope it helped out a bit. Im interested in your opinion about his handrange, adoubleuk.
    • DerErklarbar
      DerErklarbar
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.01.2018 Posts: 10
      @CucumbaMan: would you really fold AKo in the BB with a small stack? Especially if those openraise and call were in a middle to late position? I think thats too tight but Im also really good at losing money with AK. :)