[NL2-NL10] SB completes. Does this count as a call?

    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,402
      One quick general query: Sometimes people argue that if SB completes, one should treat this as an extra caller for purposes of determining raise size.

      This makes sense to me, but would a hand judge please confirm the official line. Any other thoughts on this issue?
  • 8 replies
    • TroubleMaker23
      TroubleMaker23
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.08.2008 Posts: 113
      Yes... u count the SB as a limper... but when im in the BB and the SB completes
      or BU limps i like to raise to 4BB, coz u can get the pot cheaper and u get a little more action with your good hands. this is my opinion xD .
    • burek2000
      burek2000
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.11.2007 Posts: 3,105
      Calling PF unraised pot = limping -> limper -> raise adjustment: 4BB + 1BB per limper :)

      However, when SB opencompletes, I raise to 4 BB because I don't really look at it as a raise, but more like a steal, I also raise many more hands than I would according to SHC.
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,402
      Hi guys, thanks for this.

      Burek, can I just check I understand?

      I would like to distinguish between 3 different situations:

      1). Hero is in BB, holding A,A. He will raise when it is his turn. There is one limper in front of SB, and then SB completes. Does SB count as limper #2?, in which case, does Hero raise to 6BB? Or still only 5BB?

      2.) Hero is in BB, holding A,A. There are no limpers in front of SB. SB completes. Does BB raise to 4BB or 5BB?

      Also, in relation to your comment about raising with more hands than in the SHC when SB open completes, something occurs to me:

      3.) If you are in SB and you have a good hand (A,A or K,K for example), should you complete in order to suggest weakness, in the hope that BB raises, when you can re-raise? The reason I ask this, is that if SB open raises, BB will almost certainly fold, I guess.
    • p0kerQT
      p0kerQT
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 1,300
      1) I'm not a cash game player, But I would assume you raise to 6BB here..

      2) 5 BB I think..

      3) NO!!!!!!!!!! You wouldn't believe the amount of times I've sucked out on people limping from the SB in my BB with AA. Winning a tiny pot with AA is better than losing you're whole stack to 52o when they flop a wheel ;)
    • burek2000
      burek2000
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.11.2007 Posts: 3,105
      Originally posted by Tim64
      Hi guys, thanks for this.

      Burek, can I just check I understand?

      I would like to distinguish between 3 different situations:

      1). Hero is in BB, holding A,A. He will raise when it is his turn. There is one limper in front of SB, and then SB completes. Does SB count as limper #2?, in which case, does Hero raise to 6BB? Or still only 5BB?

      2.) Hero is in BB, holding A,A. There are no limpers in front of SB. SB completes. Does BB raise to 4BB or 5BB?

      Also, in relation to your comment about raising with more hands than in the SHC when SB open completes, something occurs to me:

      3.) If you are in SB and you have a good hand (A,A or K,K for example), should you complete in order to suggest weakness, in the hope that BB raises, when you can re-raise? The reason I ask this, is that if SB open raises, BB will almost certainly fold, I guess.
      1.) According to articles SB counts as second limper and therefore you should raise to 6BB, that's also the way I play. I did notice some players raising 5BB when for example BU openlimps and SB limps, because they also raise weaker hands, since they both showed such a weakness. But in general 6BB it is...

      2.) I raise 4BB, because it should be enough to make the villan fold with weaker hands and SB opencompleting is sign of weakness, so as I previously mentioned, this kind of raise is more like a steal for me. Another important thing is that you have position on SB after the flop, so you don't have to raise bigger for OOP.

      3.) Not every player will raise many hands from BB when SB opencompletes, specially not passive fish on lower limits, so just raise your pocket rockets. Even if you raise, BB will usually think you're trying to steal his BB and will therefore give you more action by putting you on a weaker hand.

      I hope I made at least some of it clearer. :)
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,402
      All of it perfectly clear, thanks very much. Cheers for this - and your input on the other posts, too.

      Tell me, burek2000, how long did it take you to get Platinum, and what do you play these days?

      Tim
    • burek2000
      burek2000
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.11.2007 Posts: 3,105
      Originally posted by Tim64
      All of it perfectly clear, thanks very much. Cheers for this - and your input on the other posts, too.

      Tell me, burek2000, how long did it take you to get Platinum, and what do you play these days?

      Tim
      As you can see, I joint PS.com 16. 11. 2007, but I was a very casual player at first, even got broke once, before FTP had rakeback. ...then FTP implemented rakeback and I got rake back for the time I played and it was around 70$, so it was like a second chance to me... ...then I immediately moved up to NL25 with 70$ BR because 10% rake on NL10 on FTP just doesn't go well with SSS. Then in summer 2008 I finally got the PS Elephant license and started to run my statistics. Still played NL25 all up to november 2008 when I beat NL25 and just following month, december 2008 I beat NL50, somehow I improved my game and also played a lot at that time. Then last month I moved to NL100, but that's a big step forward, so I was loosing a lot at first, had to move down few times to rebuild my BR, so I had to decrease amount of table and work a little better on my theory/strategy for this limit. And as I was losing constantly at first in january, now I'm slowly winning constantly on NL100, but still I'm halfway to NL200 only, because I don't have much time to play nowadays. So regarding your question, I actually became from silver to platinum in about a month, but that's just because I was multitabling 16 tables on NL50 every day(I had a lot of time to play poker:) ). ...or you can say I needed 1 year from the time I joint PS.com.
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      Hi Tim64,

      1) 2 limpers = 4bb+2bb = 6bb and please do this on the BB because you are post-flop out of position!

      2) just raise to 4bb, I do this with almost ATC if the SB completes because a completing SB first-in is weak!

      3) No, never slowplay preflop, raisy daisy!

      - Gerv