AA OOP vs Flop-Raise vs Reg

    • Klausen16
      Klausen16
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.04.2013 Posts: 356
      Hi guys,

      How you play AA without hitting a set vs a normal or good reg if he raise the flop bet on a wet board?
      How strong u assume a raise on a flop. I think regs going to raise OverPocketPairs and heavy Draws. Probably they call the "good made hands" and the nuts.

      Added: We assume we or preflop and BU/CO just called

      3 Examples I checked out:

      Flop-Board normal: :5s: :3h: :Qc:
      Range Villian: AA-QQ,55,33,AQo,KQo,AQs,KQs
      Equity: 65 % for us

      Flop-Board wet: :Td: :9d: :2d:
      Range Villian: AA-QQ,AdQh,AdQc,AhQd,AcQd,AsQd,AdQs,KdQh,KdQc,KhQd,KcQd,KsQd,KdQs,JdJh,JdJc,JsJd
      Equity: 76% for us

      Flop-Board boardways: :Kc: :Jc: :3s:
      Range Villian: AA-KK,JJ,33,AKo,KJo,AKs,KJs,QTs,AcQc,AcTc
      Equity: 57 % for Villian

      So even in boar 3 we probably have to call because of the bet/potsize-ratio. Do you call this? Do you fold this? What does a reg play like this?
      And even same important: If you call -> how you play the turn?
  • 6 replies
    • la55i
      la55i
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 7,079
      These are pretty much impossible to answer without more info.
      For example let's take the first board. What were the positions? What was the preflop action? If hero opened AA from SB it is quite unlikely for villain to have AA-QQ if he didn't 3bet. And in the second and third board it depends a lot on if hero has A that blocks villains possible draws or not.

      So, in the third board if this was hero SB with :Ad: :Ah: and BB just calls with a wide range and then decides to raise the flop, this could be called. But imo the situation is a bit different when hero has :Ac: :As: and opens from UTG and SB calls with tighter range.

      So your question is quite difficult to answer and those raw equities vs too wide raising ranges are not so helpful.
    • Varune
      Varune
      Silver
      Joined: 24.04.2009 Posts: 5,292
      These ranges are way too assumptive and quite frankly probably quite off aswell. As la55i says this question is very hard to answer without proper information.

      On your first board: I don't see any regular raise here with KQ/AQ and i don't really see why he should either.
      2nd board: As la55i says, really depends what aces we have, furthermore why did you assign him this range? I don't see any sets or made flushes in his range.
      3rd board: More of the same story, hard to tell without proper information.
    • Klausen16
      Klausen16
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.04.2013 Posts: 356
      Originally posted by la55i
      These are pretty much impossible to answer without more info.
      For example let's take the first board. What were the positions? What was the preflop action? ...
      Ok - yeah I had to add the info to preflop. I changed something in the post on top for the preflop-situation. Lets assume that we or with the AA and CU/BU calls. With this u are absolutely right about AA probably because he will raise this preflop. I think the same about AJs-AKs, AQo-AKo, QQ+

      Originally posted by Varune
      On your first board: I don't see any regular raise here with KQ/AQ and i don't really see why he should either.
      2nd board: As la55i says, really depends what aces we have, furthermore why did you assign him this range? I don't see any sets or made flushes in his range.
      3rd board: More of the same story, hard to tell without proper information.
      Not sure if u like it, but I reworked the ranges :D :

      Flop-Board normal: :5s: :3h: :Qc:
      Range Villian: 55,33
      Equity: 89 % for Villian

      Flop-Board wet: :Td: :9d: :2d:
      Range Villian: TT-99,22,T9s,AdJd,Ad5d,Ad4d,Ad3d,KdQd,KdJd,AdQh,AdQc,AdQs,QdJd,AdJh,AdJc,AdJs,AdTh,AdTc,AdTs,8d7d,7d6d,6d5d,5d4d
      Additional Info: We have Ac,Ah
      Equity: 76% for Villian

      With the better overview:



      Flop-Board boardways: :Kc: :Jc: :3s:
      Range Villian: JJ,33,ATo,KJo,ATs,KQs-KJs,QTs
      Equity: ~ 50/50


      Looking @ this now will give me a the following idea:
      If we have a completly wet board like the sec. -> we are way behind.
      If the board is completly dry like the first. -> we are as well.
      But if the board is like the 3rd -> villian will go on with mid-strong-made hands and draws (maybe he try to protect here as well) and we may have some equity to call this.

      I mean I mad this to get a feeling for this situations like this because it is really hard for me to make this in a session on the fly. So I try to compare ranges and boards to make better decisions. But for sure the preflop action and maybe some notes/stats give me a lot of information about the range of villian.

      Am I on the wrong way doing this to improve myself here?
    • la55i
      la55i
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 7,079
      Am I on the wrong way doing this to improve myself here?
      Working with ranges and doing analysis is always good, but this spot is not so simple to analyse. When you try to figure out whether to call or not, looking at your raw equity (how often you will win if you are all-in right there) doesn't tell us much. There can be more action on the turn. So this requires a bit more thinking. You have to consider if you can improve on later streets and how often you can keep calling OTT, and also you don't want to hold any cards that block villains bluffs.

      This is good work but the scenarios you have put there are not too realistic. As Varune already said, villain probably shouldn't be raising much on board 1 or 2. And you shouldn't be betting much there either so you can't be raised.
    • Klausen16
      Klausen16
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.04.2013 Posts: 356
      Originally posted by la55i
      Working with ranges and doing analysis is always good, but this spot is not so simple to analyse.
      Ok. I just will go on. Probably I need to analyse ranges like hundreds of times to get better - which is probably normal.

      So lets see what is the next thing I will try to think through ... :f_cool:
    • pdfbq
      pdfbq
      Silver
      Joined: 23.05.2008 Posts: 142
      Try to analyze your opponents. Also try to take your table image into account.

      A nitty player will lay down much more hands than an aggro tard. Also if you are seen as a decent player it will change the game of you opponents.

      I would love to have alot your math skills at hand at the table but I'm too lazy for that. But there are definitely other things that work.