[NL2] QTo vs Larry No. 2

    • Klausen16
      Klausen16
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      Joined: 12.04.2013 Posts: 356
      Hi guys,

      I've played this hand and would like to know if you would c-bet here turn:

      MP: 147.5 BB (VPIP: 23.88, PFR: 19.85, 3Bet Preflop: 5.06, Hands: 270)
      CO: 56.5 BB (VPIP: 27.59, PFR: 11.49, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 88)
      BTN: 104 BB (VPIP: 19.71, PFR: 16.06, 3Bet Preflop: 4.08, Hands: 139)
      Hero (SB): 101 BB
      BB: 116 BB (VPIP: 25.31, PFR: 21.60, 3Bet Preflop: 6.67, Hands: 171)
      UTG: 101.5 BB (VPIP: 21.74, PFR: 17.39, 3Bet Preflop: 6.82, Hands: 117)

      Here I raise the CO-Limper with 3BB + 1BB for Limp + 1BB for OOP. CO starts with a strange size which indicates some weakness as a player for me. He does not a single 3Bet in 88 hands and the gap between VPIP and PFR is a little bit to high.
      Problem is that I am OOP. Anyway a lot of the times I can raise the Limper preflop -> c-bet flop if the board structure is like I could represent a hand and he does not hit the board that often -> and they give up a lot. So did this here as well:


      Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q:club: T:heart:

      fold, fold, CO calls 1 BB, fold, Hero raises to 5 BB, fold, CO calls 4 BB

      Flop: (11 BB, 2 players) 8:heart: 5:diamond: A:diamond:
      Hero bets 6 BB, CO calls 6 BB

      Turn: (23 BB, 2 players) A:heart:

      OTT my main question is if you c-bet here and maybe what size you do - if you do.
      The sec. Ace reduce the probability that villian has AX but it reduce the probabillity that he think that Ive got AX as well. So before turning it into a bluff I should check here? Am I right? I have big problems by giving this guy a range here because of: strange size, no 3bets, limps, ...
  • 9 replies
    • Arnalsan
      Arnalsan
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      Joined: 15.03.2010 Posts: 310
      Hey Klausen16,

      Iso-raise was pretty standard. Usually I consider in the range of this type o player Ax(low cards), small pairs and 2 gap connectors (in general).
      The FE is quite zero and your equity too because of that I won't cbet in this flop and keep the pot small as possible, included due passiviness of villain.
      As played I would consider cbetting 1/3 pot in turn mainly because dead money considering the A as a scared card for him.
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
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      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,711
      I'd just limp pre. It is basically for free.

      Preflop:There's one thing to know about limpers, at least the old-fashioned non-fish limpers. They limp anticipating (actually wanting) a raise (one raise, not a raise and a reraise) behind them. If you are up against such a player, you have about 0.003% fold equity preflop. It is not a good idea to get 10% of stacks in (he has just 55 bb) preflop with Q high out of position.

      Flop: You made your choice, and can now represent the A with your useless holding. You don't have to do that (if you want to balance at least a little bit, not betting this board 100%).

      Turn: It didn't work. If you want to enter the dark tunnel and bluff for bluffing's sake, well, just do it. I wouldn't. Blind aggression is bad poker. Controlled aggression will get you the money. You do need some help from the cards as well. At least make sure you have a gutshot or an overcard to cut some loss when he calls.

      Like I said, I'd play this hand and probably lose 0.5 bb. But sometimes I flop well, and take their 55 bb. No need to figure out if 2- or 3-barrelling randomly works this particular time, because it never works on average.
    • Arnalsan
      Arnalsan
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      Joined: 15.03.2010 Posts: 310
      YohanN7,

      I would like to avoid a multiway pot with such hand that dosen't have a good playability pos flop. Even do BB can bet to steal and you gonna have to lost the aggressiveness factor.
      I understand that iso-raise is EV+, mainly because the possibilitie of open limper fold is quite good.
      Turn I understand that betting 8bb requires a low FE
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
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      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,711
      ISO-raise is good only if you play very well out of position postflop. When you succeed, you risked 4.5 bb to win a measly 2.5 bb in the pot. Even if you succeed to fold out the opposition 60% of the time (will never happen) so that you theoretically autoprofit, you are in big trouble postflop those times when you get called unless you play very well on flop, turn and river. Note that mistakes on the later streets can cost you your stack. It takes a hell of a lot of successful preflop steals to compensate for that.

      Now, don't get me wrong, I probably raise, especially 3-bet, more preflop than most, but I chose my spots and cards for that. Position and preferably cards that others would chose to marginally fold. By the last remark, I mean don't waste good calling hands on a bluff. QTo is a good calling hand because you get yourself 5:1 in direct odds and (in this spot) 400:1 in implied odds if they have full stacks. It is no big deal if BB subsequently steals the 0.5 bb. There's always a next hand and you have plenty of 0.5 bb in your pocket. By contrast, you give yourself about 1:2 in a direct steal attempt. That's 10 times worse (direct) odds, and you have reverse implied odds as well due to holding and position.
    • la55i
      la55i
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      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 7,080
      I agree with yohan that this probably works better as just complete.

      If you decide to iso-raise here, I really like the flop cbet. I have my own read at nowadays limpers and usually they are fit/folding. I have experimented with this a bit and have started betting the flop 100% no matter if I hit or not.

    • Klausen16
      Klausen16
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      Joined: 12.04.2013 Posts: 356
      Originally posted by Arnalsan
      The FE is quite zero and your equity too because of that I won't cbet in this flop and keep the pot small as possible, included due passiviness of villain.
      As played I would consider cbetting 1/3 pot in turn mainly because dead money considering the A as a scared card for him.
      Yes ur right -> no really chance to improve + less FE = no cbet. For the 1/3 pot bet I would like to know what is the smallest cbet on flop, turn and river that you bet? Is this the 1/3?

      Originally posted by YohanN7
      I'd just limp pre. It is basically for free.
      I did this some times from now as well and feel good with it. :)

      Originally posted by YohanN7
      Preflop:There's one thing to know about limpers, at least the old-fashioned non-fish limpers. They limp anticipating (actually wanting) a raise (one raise, not a raise and a reraise) behind them. If you are up against such a player, you have about 0.003% fold equity preflop. It is not a good idea to get 10% of stacks in (he has just 55 bb) preflop with Q high out of position.
      Ok nice thing to know about but -> what is the key to be sure that we have this kind of limper here and not the limper that fit-and-fold? Vs fit-fold-player I like to autoprofit with the raise->cbet play. Vs the limpers u described I should just limp as well for sure. But what specific information do you use to decide what limper-type we got here? Is it just the fold-to-cbet-on-flop value? or something more that I can use to decide this?

      Originally posted by YohanN7
      Turn: It didn't work. If you want to enter the dark tunnel and bluff for bluffing's sake, well, just do it. I wouldn't. Blind aggression is bad poker. Controlled aggression will get you the money. You do need some help from the cards as well. At least make sure you have a gutshot or an overcard to cut some loss when he calls.
      Note this.

      Originally posted by YohanN7
      Like I said, I'd play this hand and probably lose 0.5 bb. But sometimes I flop well, and take their 55 bb. No need to figure out if 2- or 3-barrelling randomly works this particular time, because it never works on average.
      Note this 3 times. :f_drink:
      Originally posted by la55i
      I have my own read at nowadays limpers and usually they are fit/folding. I have experimented with this a bit and have started betting the flop 100% no matter if I hit or not.
      Same question: How to figure out if we got the fit/fold-limper or the limp-wannaRaise-limper? :D I just know the fold-to-cbet-flop-value. Something else here to make this decision?
    • la55i
      la55i
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      Sometimes fish limp with strong hands but you know it when they call your flop cbet or raise at some point. But most of the time they are that fit or fold type.
    • SeagalSteven
      SeagalSteven
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      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 769
      Who is Larry?

      This guy seems like rather tight and passive, he only raises 11% but plays 27% of his hands. That + limping + short stack are signs of weaker player, and as a tight one I would say there is fair chances of him being fit or fold.

      I think you can bet smaller on this flop, maybe 4bb or so. He is short so you could get him AI easily with smaller flop bet with your value hands too. Checking to give up or going for a delayed cbet not a terrible idea either.
    • Lazza61
      Lazza61
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      Joined: 23.03.2011 Posts: 10,153