nutfd+pair on overcbetted board

    • TheLearningM1ndset
      TheLearningM1ndset
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.09.2017 Posts: 22
      BU an agro reg w BU range ~60% and presumably very high cbet here.


      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      SB: $100 (100 bb)
      Hero (BB): $145.84 (145.8 bb)
      UTG: $114.06 (114.1 bb)
      MP: $222.89 (222.9 bb)
      CO: $47.64 (47.6 bb)
      BTN: $175.78 (175.8 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BB with :5s: :As: :7c: :9s:
      3 folds, BTN raises to $3.50, SB folds, Hero calls $2.50

      Flop: ($7.50) :Qs: :3s: :7h: (2 players)
      Hero checks, BTN bets $3.56, ??

      do u have this sort of hand in a x/r F range vs agro? ok, ofc i prefer not to have 3spades, but still.. w 2spades only? do u xr nutfds here often to discourage wide cbets on the boards and vs min4bet we can still ship it w some feq..

      also@sizing: i kinda like just abt 3.5x , not potting it, so i can realize eq w these hands better and dont have to be in too bad of a spot when seeing a big 4bet
  • 9 replies
    • SeagalSteven
      SeagalSteven
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 759
      I think the problem is that if you're getting any action it's quite difficult spot oop/deep, so you're basically hoping he just folds some equity hand right here. On the other hand you've only pair of 7s so all kind of hands will have eq :) and getting fold is decent result.

      If flop goes cr/call, what is your general plan ott assuming any other card than spades?

      I think I will have nfd's both in my calling and check-raising range such flop. This spot and hand I'm leaning bit more calling but getting aggressive has advantages too.

      And a little semantics, if villain raises your check-raise that's a 3bet ;)
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 10,858
      It's really hard for opponent to call your raise on this board besides QQ. Only nut draw is 456 and you block 77. I like the raise as deep stacks also give you leverage. Random Q is ahead of you and hand like KK has over 40% equity. Both of them should find a fold at decent frequency.

      Problem with c-call is that it opens your hand a bit face up. Unless the turn is 7 or spades, you check and hope the opponent checks back.

      If we think for a while about our raising range on this board, what would it be? If we only raise QQ and some AA+nfd, AQ+nfd type of hands, it's pretty much solely with premium value hands. Once we start to add some semibluffing hands, this is pretty nice one for it.
    • TheLearningM1ndset
      TheLearningM1ndset
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.09.2017 Posts: 22
      thx a lot kyyberi,

      makes a lot of sense actually. i esp like the idea of when being deeper x/r F + barell T always, (mostly give up R coz of bad blockers) coz for100bb some will stakcoff Q7+small other piece as well. but yea, even vs qider range we have 39% equity so most likely still jamming vs any 4bet for 100bb and hoping for tiny feq unless he pots it.
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,756
      Kyyberi, do you agree, though, that we're selecting between two profitable lines? i.e. both x/r and x/c should be profitable, especially given his small flop sizing? With what type of hands would you x/c vs this 1/2p sizing? What hands would you x/c vs a nearer pot sizing?


      Thanks
    • SeagalSteven
      SeagalSteven
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 759
      Well, you've so high equity hand d wide cbetting range, that both lines must be +ev. It's about maximising profit, and Kyyberi gave some valid points to prefer craising.

      Originally posted by Kyyberi
      Unless the turn is 7 or spades, you check and hope the opponent checks back.
      This I do not agree with. There is actually many turn cards that improves hero. 2/8 gives gutter. 4/6 gives gutter + completes wrap enabling bluffing option for hero. A/9/5 gives two pairs, 7 trips. Spades obviously gives us nuts. That's easily more than half of the deck. Obviously this is not bad thing when hero has craised flop either, but it will not be easy game and autoprofit for villain either when hero just check-calls flop.
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 10,858
      Problem with gutter+fd with three spades in hand is in profit making. If opponent bets turn, he should bet big. And to call with that hero needs implied odds and it's hard to get them.

      One option is to donk if one of those hits and put pressure on opponent.

      But then the question is does that make more profit than just raising the flop?
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 10,858
      I started to play with the numbers and create a raising range with 1:2 ratio between value/bluffs, and then work on calling range, and realizing that calling range is too weak and reworked them and so on until my head got hurt.

      Then I started to think that if opponent is unbalanced (aggro), why should we even care for our own balance?

      Both players hit the flop hard (set, KK+:ss) only 6,5% of the times. So it's a leveling spot for sure if opponent is up for that. Now comes the series of questions:
      - If we raise, how light is his shoving or calling range? How keen is he to fight for the pots postflop?
      - How likely he is to barrel turn cards on this board if we call?

      With the hand here hero has 65% versus BTN range, but if we raise and get called/raised the equity drops. So raise is a bit of a wasting of an equity unless opponent continues or stacks off with really wide range. Another question is do we even want to raise our value hands against aggro, if he folds a ton to a raise?

      As an example if he continues with sets, Q+:ss, Q+:( A,K), 456 he is folding 70% of his range. That means we can actually raise all our air until he adjusts his game.

      So instead of my initial thought about raising, I turn my heels and go for check-call. If he doesn't keep aggression up on the turn and river, we don't get much value. But if we raise, we don't get it either.

      First I thought that calling leads to tough turn decisions, but if BTN cbets here with his whole range (what might easily bet the case) hero has at least 41% equity versus that 100% range on ANY turn. So if opponent likes to barrel a lot, the decisions should be THAT hard.

      I lock my answer, go for exploit. Call with valuehands, raise some blocker hands like Q and As. And if opponent folds 70%, just raise a ton of your air. :)
    • SeagalSteven
      SeagalSteven
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 759
      Interesting change of heart :)

      Again good points, now for the opposing line. What I thought is that indeed we should have decent equity with those turns improving our hand even if villain barrels (some of them we improve our draw, some pick up bluffcatcher) and not necessarily need such great implieds. It also makes us that much harder to play against; if we check-raise all sets / top2s / NFDs we cant have very strong hands on our calling range and villain can take advantage of this.

      Of course as you said balancing does not matter at all in micros, but this is PLO100 where I think at least Stars-regs should be somewhat more capable.

      It is true though that this hand can become tricky to play check-calling, and playing aggressive has its merits. It's not our strongest NFD but certainly not the weakest one either, so I think hero cant really go wrong here and it's about which is at more profitable line generally.
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 10,858
      I would change that to "balancing does not matter under PLO10". I know for 100% sure that there are a lot of PLO20+ regs that work a lot on having balanced ranges and how to exploit those who doesn't. The world has changed.