[NL5] 2 Pair vs Turn Raise. Difficult spot.

    • neliorelva
      neliorelva
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2017 Posts: 20
      Hi guys, played this hand on pokerstars. So, i found myself in a difficult spot on the turn and kinda struggled to find the answer to how should my thinking process have been.
      I guess that when he raises he could have some draws and AK but looking to his stats now, i think that i should've folded.
      Thanks in advance for your feedback.
      PokerStars - €0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

      UTG: 134 BB (VPIP: 21.77, PFR: 17.01, 3Bet Preflop: 8.89, Hands: 151)
      Hero (MP): 97.6 BB
      CO: 127.2 BB (VPIP: 49.21, PFR: 26.98, 3Bet Preflop: 4.76, Hands: 67)
      BTN: 166.2 BB (VPIP: 40.00, PFR: 30.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 10)
      SB: 40 BB (VPIP: 42.86, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 7)
      BB: 73.4 BB (VPIP: 17.76, PFR: 11.12, 3Bet Preflop: 4.20, Hands: 1,840)

      SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

      Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has K:diamond: J:club:

      UTG raises to 2.4 BB, Hero calls 2.4 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold

      Flop: (6.2 BB, 2 players) 4:spade: 8:heart: J:heart:
      UTG bets 4 BB, Hero calls 4 BB

      Turn: (14.2 BB, 2 players) K:spade:
      UTG checks, Hero bets 10 BB, UTG raises to 45 BB, Hero raises to 91.2 BB and is all-in, UTG calls 46.2 BB

      River: (196.6 BB, 2 players) 2:spade:

      UTG shows 8:club: 8:spade: (Three of a Kind, Eights)
      (Pre 54%, Flop 98%, Turn 91%)
      Hero shows K:diamond: J:club: (Two Pair, Kings and Jacks)
      (Pre 46%, Flop 2%, Turn 9%)
      UTG wins 186.8 BB
  • 24 replies
    • Fanko
      Fanko
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.08.2010 Posts: 1,109
      Fold preflop, KJo is absolutely terrible vs UTG open range. As played, call flop, bet/shove turn and gg.
    • la55i
      la55i
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 7,079
      I think KJo should be folded pre vs UTG open.

      OTT his raise looks more like a bluff imo. Hands like he had here should continue barreling and not give free cards. You hit top 2 pair on a drawy board so I guess stack off is not bad.
    • MyFloXyBabY
      MyFloXyBabY
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2010 Posts: 2,602
      3bet or fold pre, so often fold pre.
      Impossible to get away turn, that's poker.
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,711
      Pre is a fold due to worst possible position.

      Turn: I know folding is hard, but don't just blindly shove in that last piece of stack. It is 35 + 46 = 81 bb, so it is worth more consideration than your typical preflop decision. You need to put your opponent on a range, and see how you do against that range. That's your job, but it is clear that you lose big time to his value range, the main problem being that you split with KJ. You are at the bottom of your range here, and stacking off with all KJ combos is probably incorrect. So, yes, you can get away.
    • semiramiRNMD
      semiramiRNMD
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2009 Posts: 195
      Fold pre, fold turn. He looks like a decent player, so his UTG range is mostly PP and AJ+ ATs+ KQ and I can't find a hand that you beat and that he plays like that.
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,711
      Originally posted by semiramiRNMD
      Fold pre, fold turn. He looks like a decent player, so his UTG range is mostly PP and AJ+ ATs+ KQ and I can't find a hand that you beat and that he plays like that.
      Bluffs?
      With honest opponents life is easy.
    • semiramiRNMD
      semiramiRNMD
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2009 Posts: 195
      Originally posted by YohanN7
      Originally posted by semiramiRNMD
      Fold pre, fold turn. He looks like a decent player, so his UTG range is mostly PP and AJ+ ATs+ KQ and I can't find a hand that you beat and that he plays like that.
      Bluffs?
      With honest opponents life is easy.
      He is almost never bluffing on this board.
    • Varune
      Varune
      Silver
      Joined: 24.04.2009 Posts: 5,292
      Originally posted by semiramiRNMD
      Originally posted by YohanN7
      Originally posted by semiramiRNMD
      Fold pre, fold turn. He looks like a decent player, so his UTG range is mostly PP and AJ+ ATs+ KQ and I can't find a hand that you beat and that he plays like that.
      Bluffs?
      With honest opponents life is easy.
      He is almost never bluffing on this board.
      Yes he would, but not with this line. ;)

      It's a very tough laydown since your hand improves, but relative to his value range it really doesn't.

      Oh and as previous noted, this is a fold preflop without reads.
    • neliorelva
      neliorelva
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2017 Posts: 20
      Thanks for the input.
      Now that i look to it more clearly the only hands that are on his range on this type of play are 88, JJ, KK and AK and based on his stats i don't think he would play AK like that. So, yes, i could get away from it.
      Thanks again, really appreciate it.
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,711
      Originally posted by semiramiRNMD
      Originally posted by YohanN7
      Originally posted by semiramiRNMD
      Fold pre, fold turn. He looks like a decent player, so his UTG range is mostly PP and AJ+ ATs+ KQ and I can't find a hand that you beat and that he plays like that.
      Bluffs?
      With honest opponents life is easy.
      He is almost never bluffing on this board.
      Must be great to know such things. I don'tX(
    • MyFloXyBabY
      MyFloXyBabY
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2010 Posts: 2,602
      Originally posted by YohanN7
      Must be great to know such things. I don'tX(
      You should work more on your game then ! :P
      You clearly have a lot to make up for, you noob ;)
    • semiramiRNMD
      semiramiRNMD
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2009 Posts: 195
      Originally posted by YohanN7
      Originally posted by semiramiRNMD
      Originally posted by YohanN7
      Originally posted by semiramiRNMD
      Fold pre, fold turn. He looks like a decent player, so his UTG range is mostly PP and AJ+ ATs+ KQ and I can't find a hand that you beat and that he plays like that.
      Bluffs?
      With honest opponents life is easy.
      He is almost never bluffing on this board.
      Must be great to know such things. I don'tX(
      LOL

      He can't represent much with this turn card. With AK he should bet the turn. KJ is likely out of his range. And Hero has a blocker for KK. And on this board he has not nearly enough FE for his bluff to work if he has air.
      Even if we can add some bluffs to his range we will not win often enough.
    • la55i
      la55i
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 7,079
      I put the guy mostly on bluffs so maybe I have to work even harder :f_confused:
    • MyFloXyBabY
      MyFloXyBabY
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2010 Posts: 2,602
      Originally posted by la55i
      I put the guy mostly on bluffs so maybe I have to work even harder :f_confused:
      Don't even try, no point at your state :]
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,711
      Originally posted by semiramiRNMD
      Originally posted by YohanN7
      Originally posted by semiramiRNMD
      Originally posted by YohanN7
      Originally posted by semiramiRNMD
      Fold pre, fold turn. He looks like a decent player, so his UTG range is mostly PP and AJ+ ATs+ KQ and I can't find a hand that you beat and that he plays like that.
      Bluffs?
      With honest opponents life is easy.
      He is almost never bluffing on this board.
      Must be great to know such things. I don'tX(
      LOL

      He can't represent much with this turn card. With AK he should bet the turn. KJ is likely out of his range. And Hero has a blocker for KK. And on this board he has not nearly enough FE for his bluff to work if he has air.
      Even if we can add some bluffs to his range we will not win often enough.
      Note that I have advocated a fold all the way. I'm just objecting to the "read" that people "never bluff here". The good ones do, provided they think you are decent but not good (i.e. they think you think "they never bluff on this board").
    • semiramiRNMD
      semiramiRNMD
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2009 Posts: 195
      Originally posted by YohanN7
      Originally posted by semiramiRNMD
      Originally posted by YohanN7
      Originally posted by semiramiRNMD
      Originally posted by YohanN7
      Originally posted by semiramiRNMD
      Fold pre, fold turn. He looks like a decent player, so his UTG range is mostly PP and AJ+ ATs+ KQ and I can't find a hand that you beat and that he plays like that.
      Bluffs?
      With honest opponents life is easy.
      He is almost never bluffing on this board.
      Must be great to know such things. I don'tX(
      LOL

      He can't represent much with this turn card. With AK he should bet the turn. KJ is likely out of his range. And Hero has a blocker for KK. And on this board he has not nearly enough FE for his bluff to work if he has air.
      Even if we can add some bluffs to his range we will not win often enough.
      Note that I have advocated a fold all the way. I'm just objecting to the "read" that people "never bluff here". The good ones do, provided they think you are decent but not good (i.e. they think you think "they never bluff on this board").
      Are you serious? That's 5NL.
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,711
      Originally posted by semiramiRNMD
      Originally posted by YohanN7
      Originally posted by semiramiRNMD
      Originally posted by YohanN7
      Originally posted by semiramiRNMD
      Originally posted by YohanN7
      Originally posted by semiramiRNMD
      Fold pre, fold turn. He looks like a decent player, so his UTG range is mostly PP and AJ+ ATs+ KQ and I can't find a hand that you beat and that he plays like that.
      Bluffs?
      With honest opponents life is easy.
      He is almost never bluffing on this board.
      Must be great to know such things. I don'tX(
      LOL

      He can't represent much with this turn card. With AK he should bet the turn. KJ is likely out of his range. And Hero has a blocker for KK. And on this board he has not nearly enough FE for his bluff to work if he has air.
      Even if we can add some bluffs to his range we will not win often enough.
      Note that I have advocated a fold all the way. I'm just objecting to the "read" that people "never bluff here". The good ones do, provided they think you are decent but not good (i.e. they think you think "they never bluff on this board").
      Are you serious? That's 5NL.
      Serious about what?
      When I wrote the above reply I was indeed confused and mixed this hand up with something else. What I have advocated is "sometimes call, sometimes fold" on turn. The post is still there. But if you know what they hold, act according to that. (And know that hole-card cameras is cheating.)
    • Titan8
      Titan8
      Gold
      Joined: 18.02.2014 Posts: 798
      Guys, I dont think its easily stack off in this spot, because we dont goes well against his value range. Look at his line, I saw playing sets like this very often. And any reasonable bluffs here are combo draws like AQs/ATs/T9s which all of this have a lot of equity.
      I estimate his range as KK,JJ,88,44,AhQh,AsQs,AhTh,AsTs,QhTh,QsTs,Th9h,Ts9s.
      Against this range, we have just 40% equity = ) shove on turn is spew. We need to put in his range some unreasonable spews to make this move +EV. And we are still not sure he plays all this draws this way.
    • la55i
      la55i
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 7,079
      This is getting interesting.

      I believe checking sets OTT might be not so good. So I believe villain would often continue betting with those.

      If we face that range mentioned above and have 40% equity we are close to breaking even with our shove. Villain needs to fold about 5% for our shove to be +EV.
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