[NL2] If you guys again complain about my bluffs I promise, I will show my graph :)

    • pdfbq
      pdfbq
      Silver
      Joined: 23.05.2008 Posts: 142
      I really do :D

      As a site note, I hope this one will not be called a 'black tunnel bluff' bu YhoanN7.

      My thoughts.

      To start with it's the second time he 3 bets me so I look at his stats, see 8% so I think that bet could mean all kind of nothing (or AA KK etc..)
      I call with the intention on a good board to float one and then when villain checks bet the turn. That is my plan before calling the 3 bet.

      When the player is not too good the flop is a good board I think. It blocks AK and KK hands... so the chance of him having rubbish might even be even 4:1.

      PokerStars - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

      MP: 100.5 BB (VPIP: 20.27, PFR: 17.57, 3Bet Preflop: 4.76, Hands: 76)
      CO: 188 BB (VPIP: 35.53, PFR: 21.15, 3Bet Preflop: 1.33, Hands: 239)
      Hero (BTN): 108.5 BB
      SB: 74 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 13)
      BB: 107.5 BB (VPIP: 18.69, PFR: 15.40, 3Bet Preflop: 7.63, Hands: 406)
      UTG: 95.5 BB (VPIP: 23.87, PFR: 14.67, 3Bet Preflop: 6.34, Hands: 386)

      SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

      Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has T:spade: 9:spade:

      fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, SB calls 2.5 BB, BB raises to 13 BB, Hero calls 10 BB, fold

      Flop: (29 BB, 2 players) K:heart: 2:club: K:spade:
      BB bets 15.5 BB, Hero calls 15.5 BB

      Turn: (60 BB, 2 players) J:diamond:
      BB checks, Hero bets 28 BB


      , fold
      Hero wins 58 BB
  • 11 replies
    • Arnalsan
      Arnalsan
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.03.2010 Posts: 310
      Hey,

      I don't know if your graphs are great but I think this spot is totally EV negative. If it's a exploitative line that you are playing against a fit or fold villain you'll could be EV positive because either you or him will miss the flop 2/3 times and more than compensates your move.
    • MyFloXyBabY
      MyFloXyBabY
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2010 Posts: 2,603
      Originally posted by pdfbq
      As a site note, I hope this one will not be called a 'black tunnel bluff' bu YhoanN7.
      So if it is by me, is it fine ? :D


      8% 3bet isn't "all kind of nothing" at all dude !
      Fold flop.
    • la55i
      la55i
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 7,080
      1) 8% 3bet overall is totally fine
      2) 8% 3bet BB vs BTN would be ok, could be even higher
      3) this is not a 3bet, it is a squeeze, so range can be a bit different.

      Your play might work because your villain is bad. On this board he shouldn't be cbetting much. You might be able to float here because if villain cbets too much crap here he will check fold the turn too often. But you have to remember that vs good players your line won't work.
      Also keep in mind that while you think now that you are exploiting villain, some guys could exploit your low fold to flop cbet & high fold to turn cbet by doublebarreling crap.

      I agree with guys above. As an exploitative play this might work but in general I like folding flop more.
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,711
      Originally posted by pdfbq
      ...
      As a site note, I hope this one will not be called a 'black tunnel bluff' bu YhoanN7.
      ...
      Lol, no, this is not a "dark tunnel bluff" (three-barreling with air and no draw praying villain folds, gets scarier street by street). This is a more subtle bluff. But I'd still like to see a little more potential in the hand you chose to float with. Other than that, I like it. You don't call 3-bets preflop with this sort of hand to play fit or fold on the flop. You call to steal a fair amount of pots.

      I blatantly disagree with that this wouldn't work against good players. It does because good players have the common sense to often fold when OOP, especially if stacks are deep. This doesn't mean that they are "weak", because they will do you over when you are out of position (if you have the good sense to fold a fair amount OOP). The bottom line is that equity is more than realizable IP, and vice versa OOP. Policing the game OOP simply doesn't work. You'd usually be successful in small pots and unsuccessful in the big ones.
    • pdfbq
      pdfbq
      Silver
      Joined: 23.05.2008 Posts: 142
      Originally posted by YohanN7
      Lol, no, this is not a "dark tunnel bluff" ...
      Pfew...! :D

      And as promised my stats. I'm running too good probably but this is not a graph of a player spewing chips, I'm convinced about that.

      The rather big downswing (7 buyins) at about 70K has strangely enough not so much to do with bluffing.
      More even the opposite. As I remember I lost some big hands in a row to semi short stackers and then got scared.
      Probably called to much against those guys though. Planning to make a post about that streak.



      Thank you all guys really, It's fun to hear other thoughts and ideas!
    • MisterSnS
      MisterSnS
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.11.2011 Posts: 1,748
      why not move up? :f_p:

      vs. someone who's that agressive preflop, your play is pretty good. I think w34z3l once mentioned it, that the population generally cbets a lot in 3bet pots and gives up their bluffs a lot on the turn.
    • BadHabit1989
      BadHabit1989
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.07.2016 Posts: 321
      no comment about "fold pre" yet? so i have to do it


      fold pre!
    • la55i
      la55i
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 7,080
      Probably no comments about fold pre because we don't have to fold pre? :pcuser:

      Suited connector, absolute position, possibility that SB calls too when we call.. And the fact that we have slightly bigger stacks than 100bb really maybe doesn't change at all but could make it a liiiiiiiiiitle bit better?

      Maybe this could be folded but I dont think it is "fold pre!" <<--- that bad. :f_biggrin:
    • MisterSnS
      MisterSnS
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.11.2011 Posts: 1,748
      what about folding AA's pre?
    • BadHabit1989
      BadHabit1989
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.07.2016 Posts: 321
      while the first post was just fun now some serious thoughts about the hand.

      I think a fold pre would still be the best (most profitable) option vs the population. followed by 4b (if we really have a specific read like "villain 3bets to much".
      When we have a specific read like "villain cbets 100% flop after 3betting pre and x/f 60+% on the turn when floated" heros line might do well. (he can do that with any2 on any board than)

      general gameplain of hero
      "I call with the intention on a good board to float one and then when villain checks bet the turn. That is my plan before calling the 3 bet."

      good intention. float with equity. not sure if nothing into a gutshot is the kind of hand i would float with.
      considering we give villain the said 8% 3bet (which is kinda normal) he has plenty of kings in his range.
      More nutted kings than we have in our preceived range.

      If we have some specific reads theres no sense to discuss this hand.

      as played vs population this is lighting money on fire (especialy on NL2)


      Problems I have general:
      -We commit ~12% of our stack pre with Suited Connector (without giving villain a chance to fold pre)
      -we do not end action pre


      Here you can read about my thaughts on spot like that in general under topic 1.
      I worte an huge ass article about exactly stuff like calling 3b with SC (only my own opinion tho)
    • la55i
      la55i
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 7,080
      Commit might be a bit wrong word. We risk 10bb to see the flop with suited connector and we have position postflop. Nothing bad there imo. And it doesn't matter if we don't close the action pre. SB just called in the first round so he probably doesn't go crazy. We already have decent implied odds and if SB calls those are even better.