Possible botring on Bet365 premium cashgame tables

    • dracoo23
      dracoo23
      Diamond
      Joined: 14.08.2007 Posts: 139
      Hi all,

      As I started a topic on the hungarian Pokerstrategy forum, i would like to start here too about this case.

      The following players are bots, we are pretty sure about these names (ususally they play NL50-NL100):

      CLERGYMAN72
      LOVEISPOKER
      COSMOPOLITAN6
      CORONER883
      REALLITYCHECK
      FLURRY67985
      IAMGROOT7
      HECT0R2
      f4ckthesystem
      Bonomo700

      They play exactly with the same preflop and postflop statistics (in depht not just the basic statistics). At the beginning they never sat on the same tables, but later they started to do it, usually two of them are sitting on the same table and probably they share the holecards too.

      We reported this issue to the support multiple times, but they don't really understand a problem (probably they don't want to understand). We were being told by the support they are currently investigating the issue but the bots still have been playing since we reported first time.

      Did anybody notice the same on this forum?
  • 17 replies
    • lumposz
      lumposz
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.12.2012 Posts: 365
      They are playing at NL20 as well.
    • Fanko
      Fanko
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.08.2010 Posts: 1,135
      Are they winning or losing money ?
    • dracoo23
      dracoo23
      Diamond
      Joined: 14.08.2007 Posts: 139
      Originally posted by Fanko
      Are they winning or losing money ?
      Winning especially against recreationals.
    • wilmots83
      wilmots83
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 05.10.2008 Posts: 4,040
      Originally posted by Fanko
      Are they winning or losing money ?

      It doesnt matter only if they loose a lot ( more than about -25 bb/100 )
    • Lazza61
      Lazza61
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 23.03.2011 Posts: 10,341
      Moved to the Bet365 board.
    • Fanko
      Fanko
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.08.2010 Posts: 1,135
      It matter a lot, as if they are losing, you have no reason to complain and if they are winning, you have a bigger issue - u r losing vs bots in a game that is unsolvable.
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,581
      Interesting, you write about bots winning at nl100 and this thread gets so little attention. If those bots can play profitable on nl100 then they likely play all stakes below nl100 with multiple accounts. If they do collusion, and have solid strategy they are so tough to play against and make those stakes very hard to beat for other players. They likely play also on all other casinos unless they still didnt have time to create that many accounts and configure them but they surely will. If there are micro stake bots that struggle to play BE it is not a huge issue because they generate traffic and ate exploitable so humans have still chance to win money. The big problem is existance of solid bot which uses multiple accounts on multiple casinos and is the only winner at most stakes. Then the whole profit is shared between casinos and bot owner.

      If you are sure that those accounts are really bots because have super similar stats, why dont you create a report where you display names of those players and like 20 preflop and 20 postflop stats. That would be a proof so that everyone can see it. The way you reported the problem looks to unaware people as conspiracy theory. If you report them by providing report which shows that they have identical stats, casino might block them because they would be afraid that it goes public if they don't. Then bot owners would loose like 10-20k euros on those accounts, and would soon create new accounts. Then you can again see using pokertracker or holdem manager which players have identical stats on NL50, NL100 and report them again. They will have hard time changing strategy for each bot so that bots produce different statistics. You will slow them down a lot by doing this.

      Just think what would happen if you start reporting bots on all networks except stars? Traffic would be so low so it wouldnt be profitable for most casinos to pay half million $ for gambling licence. Ipoker traffic is rapidly decreasing even though it is full of bots. Most of networks are full of bots. Stars is the safest to play, only bots that are very profitable can invest enough in stealth or even pay humans to click what bot suggests. Just visit http://www.poker-bot.org/main/,http://www.bonusbots.com/, https://www.pokerbot.com/, http://www.abzpokerbot.com/en/. there are 4 commercial big websites that sell bot profiles. Those profiles are bad cheap bots can make very low profit but still it is better to play vs fish than vs breakeven bots.

      The point is, you can complain to casinos but casinos dont do anything about bots. They know that it costs a lot of money to have good bot detection and that they cant detect bots that play with humans clicking and watching what bot advices so they rather let bots play and try to keep it as secret.

      You can go to http://www.maxinmontreal.com which is big poker bot community sharing code and knowledge, most of guys have phd or at least master and cooperate. So what ate the chances of ipoker, party poker and similar networks to be better than those guys in detection of bots, when casino can pay several guys to work on it, and in bot community there are more than 1000 guys. Casinos cant even solve software bugs, connection issues and similar stuff, so how can anyone expect them to do very advanced things like bot detection which you cant learn at school.

      The newest trend in bot community is gto solvers. They put on server all gto solutions for all scenarious (solved by gto solver and similar). Then load single solution from server to local machine while playing, and thus play identical strategy as gto solver suggests. It requires powerfull pc a lot investment, and few of such bot owners already reported to be able to win at highest possible stakes.
      This will be the end of online poker for human professionals which will happen likely in 1-2 years until bot owners manage to create enough accounts, PCs etc, and all we will all have to play live games in casino.

      You can read all this info on maxinmontreal and poker-ai.org. all infos there are public, they dont hide anything, discuss about poker and bots like we are doing it here.
    • nabokow
      nabokow
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.01.2008 Posts: 197
      ipoker was always bot infested, right
    • LorD231984
      LorD231984
      Black
      Joined: 17.07.2007 Posts: 19,156
      GingerKid love your post very much! Thanks for your time.

      This is very crazy.
    • Noname81
      Noname81
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.12.2013 Posts: 161
      Originally posted by nabokow
      ipoker was always bot infested, right
      and 888 [Edited by Lazza61]
    • theimbecile
      theimbecile
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.10.2009 Posts: 172
      They have pretty similar stats according to my hand history also. I can provide hands if you are going to take this issue further.
    • s0ultak3rrr
      s0ultak3rrr
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.06.2011 Posts: 638
      Originally posted by dracoo23
      Hi all,

      As I started a topic on the hungarian Pokerstrategy forum, i would like to start here too about this case.

      The following players are bots, we are pretty sure about these names (ususally they play NL50-NL100):

      CLERGYMAN72
      LOVEISPOKER
      COSMOPOLITAN6
      CORONER883
      REALLITYCHECK
      FLURRY67985
      IAMGROOT7
      HECT0R2
      f4ckthesystem
      Bonomo700

      They play exactly with the same preflop and postflop statistics (in depht not just the basic statistics). At the beginning they never sat on the same tables, but later they started to do it, usually two of them are sitting on the same table and probably they share the holecards too.

      We reported this issue to the support multiple times, but they don't really understand a problem (probably they don't want to understand). We were being told by the support they are currently investigating the issue but the bots still have been playing since we reported first time.

      Did anybody notice the same on this forum?

      When you are accusing someone in doing something you should be able to give some proofs for his activity .
      If you do not it means your words have 0 value and they shouldn't be considered as some meaningful factor about the certain questions .
      And if you have send this to the support in this form , how do you expect to get some results ?
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,581
      Originally posted by theimbecile
      They have pretty similar stats according to my hand history also. I can provide hands if you are going to take this issue further.

      provide hands please and lets report them. we can send link to them of this page where everybody in public can see player names and how stats are identical.
    • theimbecile
      theimbecile
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.10.2009 Posts: 172
      Sorry, guys, I've been overrun by some issues and I need time to filter and select hands, but I'll do it eventually.
    • novakovici
      novakovici
      Platinum
      Joined: 13.10.2016 Posts: 11
      Some of them seem to be gone after these posts on here and 2+2, but the thing is, who ever owned those bots just made new ones. Marzipan, fuckthesystem,hearthflower have the same stats as old bots, and it's very easy to recognise them.
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 10,938
      Nice work. But.

      This kind of battle versus bots is close to useless, as the owner(s) of bots will just make new accounts and continue. Until in couple of months they are closed, and they open new ones.

      The only way to really fight botting has to come from the poker rooms. As we can detect bots with decent accuracy based just on tracker stats, it shouldn't be impossible to develop an algorithm that detects possible bots with good accuracy. Of course it takes time, but how about something like this:

      - When someone makes a cashout over set amount or multiple smaller ones, his database goes through algorithm.
      - If algorithm flags the account, a security team investigates with their GOOD bot detection protocol.

      This would probably mean that cashouts take a little longer, but I would be happy to wait couple of days to get my money if that ensures less bots in games. Algorithm and bot detection protocol has to be designed by people who really understands modern bots and how they are built to prevent detection.

      It's bullshit that poker rooms say that they are doing everything they can to prevent bots, as they really aren't. And probably they will not unless bots really start to kill games. And even then I would expect most poker rooms just closes the doors. Casinos make the money, poker is for PR.
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,581
      - If algorithm flags the account, a security team investigates with their GOOD bot detection protocol.
      They are not able to fix simple software bugs, but you expect them to have good bot detection protocol?
      Even if they would be able to detect bots, they need bots to generate traffic all day long. Some regulars will
      notice that there are bots at the tables but who cares about regulars, they just take the money from the system, almost never deposit. Recreationals are not going to notice bots, and they lose money anyway.
      Online casino owners are going to grind money until they can, in the same way as poker pros are grinding until they can, regardless if it is rigged game or not.