Decision Trees

    • DedoMassivo
      DedoMassivo
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2017 Posts: 24
      Hey everyone!

      I am thinking of implementing the use of decision trees in my off-table study. This is because I think it will allow me to practice my thought process with multiple decisions to choose from in a specific situation.

      I have found this post in 2+2 but I feel it is a bit incomplete and lacks some info as where one should begin studying this form of schematics. Since a lot of you have a nice background in mathematics and statistics I feel that you may provide me some hints as where can I look for some info about this and how do you apply it to poker (if you do).

      I get the basics as how to create a simple one, I think is rather intuitive. But I think that poker is a game with so many variables that it's difficult to create successfully any kind of relevant scheme, nontheless i think it is a nice endeavour to pursuit.

      Do you think it is only applicable (humanely) to specific decisions in a given street? Ex: I am faced with a bet in the River, should I call, fold, or raise? And this is whithout thinking about bet-sizing...

      Anyway, I would like some discussion on the matter if possible!

      Cheers,
      DedoMassivo
  • 8 replies
    • STLfan
      STLfan
      Basic
      Joined: 03.04.2017 Posts: 32
      I have been playing about two years before black Friday. Information that moves to knowledge, then moves to intelligence, to the point of unconscious competence, then routines from all such information will eventually form a pattern of existence with each individual routine; each movement, each initial routine have genesis moments from an initial bet.

      This forms greater instincts to know which decision to be made by what tool to use in moments.

      How well a person understands their opponents will also determine how well a person, how quickly a person can put them on an exact hand or draw or the exact reason for the initial bet of said opponent.

      Psychology, Philosophy, each has to answer to their hierarchy before proceeding with a decision. Psychology offers conditions of the player of which the initial scope of a target has come into the web.

      Within this web, is their behavior when things are at their best and their worst, usually the framework comes from prior hands leading up to this investigation to target of a genesis moment or from prior sessions.

      Within each behavior is why they are betting so much or much to less, then a just right bet, these situations offer comfortable situations, this also has a parallel track when comfortable; then a person has a made hand they usually win most showdown pots, so, the two routines one above and one below the center offer the conditions of great comfortability, un-comfortability when making weaker plays off initial bets.

      The opposite of this would be players bluffing and trapping that are playing off dynamics or changing their model of play for image or other reasons this type of play needs to be understood to be the absolute to make decisions based on your model of thought.

      Philosophy, offers a closer examination of the absolute, so, to define the absolute, in poker it is either when the hand ends or when the cards are turned over when the hand is over. Psychology offers conditions the help get to the truth of what is happening a fragment of the absolute.

      Philosophy will check off on psychology of moments knowing the fragment of the absolute, has the truth before the hand is over or to finalize the moment before the absolute by getting the other player to pay them off knowing they have the best hand when the money comes in if honest with yourself about these moments this will play out over the long run.

      However, this is before the hand is over and the absolute is not known as of yet or play your framework of decisions to the river to let the absolute be known.

      Using math of odds and percentages to support how a person can use information about players to then adjust to use math as the hire archery and psychology, philosophy to support math.

      Trying to apply a fixed system strategy, from my experience this is what better players are looking to crack, because fixed system strategies can be profitable but these players write books that have already made fixed systems money so, they write books to sell their story.

      My micro-level players do not have the ability to produce a fixed system strategy that produces the absolute every time based on them knowing they have the best hand to win based on not having to come from behind more than being paid off by sub-optimal players with second best hands.

      So, since having consuming information what I have reduced all of this too, all micro-players will make mistakes even with their winning hands, I hold this standard to myself through philosophical debate of opposite view point’s even it is just with myself through honest evaluation of my abilities vs. my opponents

      I will catch them in this philosophy; the mistake will be greater than their ability to know when they are beat to then fold because they will pay off my hand, the best hand with their second best strong hand because of their sub-optimal strategy.

      The rest is just waiting for these moments. However, if you are going to use math as a primary framework I am interested in your journey because I am good with numbers but not as good with math so, this would be interesting for my game as well.

      My journey my hierarchy, my frame work of decisions, answers to my personal lord and savior Jesus Christ, and the God of Abraham, because I am not looking for fortune or fame but to always give back to forums through discussions, then praise to both, and everything else will take care of itself, these discussions playing the game is fun for me when at the table because of my journey away from the table.
    • DedoMassivo
      DedoMassivo
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2017 Posts: 24
      Thanks a lot for your great reply!

      I like how you make such a parallel between your decision framework in the tables and in life in general. I think that there's a lot of applicable concepts and attitudes from poker to real life but I find it almost counter-intuitive, at first at least, to do it inversely. So I sometimes find myself delving into an almost bubble like thought where I lose the obvious notion that I am playing against real people, the same, more or less, that I will encounter in real life, suceptible to the pressure of a tough decision or just the spazzy attitude of a desire to use his/her money to get a bit of thrill, or even the "irresistible" urge to pay to see if "he" really has it. Adjusting to that is part of what makes this game amazingly complex but also simple and sometimes, if one let's it, intuitive based on our own perception of the world and how people react.

      I am very interested in psychology and I have found out in my dilettante research that we humans find our most enjoyment periods in situations of "limited freedom", this means that if our mind is allowed to wander totally free, whithout any kind of discipline and thought direction we find ourselves submerged with entropy and all kind of negative thoughts. On the contrary, if we allow our mind to be opressed with an overly restricted set of rules we end up choking it, preventing any kind of creative process and problem solving abilities. This is the reason why our set of values, our cultural traits, our laws and habits exist and are so important, it is also the reason why one enjoys sports and mind games. They provide us a framework where our mind (and body) is free to develop, but also has a direction to which its effort much converge.

      Relating this to poker: I think that this is why "fixed" strategies are almost a trap as it restrains our own capabilities and also, provide space for some "mental procrastination", meaning that it can be even pleasurable to not having to think much and just apply a "winning strategy". This is where we miss the point in a mind game such as poker, if we do not allow ourselves to drink from a fountain of knowledge, process it, and merge it with our own personality and attitudes, we are doomed to become still and underdeveloped where we now stand.

      I find this a lot in my "official" academic/professional area which is music and music teaching on particular, where colleagues of mine (and myself also in another time), in the university or prior to that, try to get from their teachers or whoever they choose, some kind of recipe or formula on how one should study it's instrument or piece of music, etc. My approach with my students is one of self development and logic achievement process, meaning that I try to hint them on a particular direction and help them get, using their logic abilities, where they "should" get, and yes, even with really small kids it works.

      Now about math: I am also interested in math and all it's possibilities, being it practical or just as a way for me to understand how the world processes and "happens". This is also a part of why poker is so interesting for me.
      I am not brilliant in math but perfectly capable of grasping complex concepts, abstract thought and mental calculus. The problem I find most of the time is that there are a lot of fundamental concepts that are rusty or missing and sometimes I see myself not getting it, but most of all I sometimes do not know where should I even start.

      I hope this proves to be a nice discussion and that there is more people joining as I also think that this discussions are not only fun but also very enlightening and contributes to my "real life" journey!

      Cheers,
      DedoMassivo
    • TEXASDUKE1
      TEXASDUKE1
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.04.2017 Posts: 9
      Wow This is very heavy !!!!! Does any one else under stand any of this ?
      You both are Sailing the Boat in the right direction for complete under standing of how the game of poker not only fits with your every day activities but also how open minded a person needs to be.
      Im just a simple minded guy playing poker with some knowledge and experience. A long time ago I was fortunate to cross paths with some in depth players that taught me the skills I have today and they still stand and work better now then ever. I call this type of skill old school because players dont want to learn these things because math is the only way to help and make your decisions. math is better under stood then the old way of playing because of the grasp in which the old way takes more understanding . no matter what other say you have have to have all parts put together to get a solid foundation.
      ok ill stop there I dont type fast nor did i type well LOL ( not to peg my age LOL )

      Id like to learn more with you 2 maybe we can get together on a talk thinggy and can talk poker and other things ,

      may your decisions and reads make you more and more :)
    • fagostino
      fagostino
      Silver
      Joined: 13.03.2009 Posts: 5
      ghjghj
    • Lazza61
      Lazza61
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 23.03.2011 Posts: 10,341
      Hey fagostino,

      Welcome to the forums :welcome:

      After 8 years, I would have expected a slightly more interesting first post. :f_biggrin:

      Why don't you take a moment or two to Introduce yourself! to us properly.

      Cheers :f_drink:

      Laz
    • DedoMassivo
      DedoMassivo
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2017 Posts: 24
      Hey TEXASDUKE1!

      I'm glad you found this thread interesting and I invite you and everyone that comes through here to join the discussion and really delve into this broader line of thought as I think it can add to this forum and also to its members.

      After all, we all joined this site to learn more about poker because not only we love the game but also want to profit from it. As it is quite spoken nowadays, the edges are becoming less and less obvious as we move upwards in the stakes, so I think that we must be open minded and give a try to many ideas we come across, be it strategy or even philosophical/lifestyle oriented. I say "must" because that mindset of learning and growth is what will allow us to find new edges and also to want to find them!

      I also believe that inner strength and motivation is what most of the time separates the good from the bad and the excellent from the good, meaning that if we allow us to aim at a greater goal than we think we are capable of accomplishing, and also be able to nurture that motivation, we will ,more often than not, be able to set ourselves in the right path and be open minded about what that path might bring us, good stuff and bad stuff. It is also in this motivation/grit that poker can teach us some things, such as disregard ,to some extent, the short run and focus in the long run, a skill so rare in our common cultural skillset.

      Regarding math, I believe that we, as players and as individuals, can only win by getting a better grasp of mathematics and even in this matter poker can be brought into "real life" as game theory and statistics are tools used by analysts around the world to try to assess the state of the world, for instance game theory is widely used in political science and statistics in about everything we see and interact with. Talking of poker only, I think that to become better than the average we need to know more that the average, so that means that we have to be able to identify our lacks and tackle them decisively, being so, because, among other things, I lack in math knowledge and understanding I decided to venture into this very interesting subject.

      Basically, I think that we shouldn't disregard the "old school" as also we shouldn't do it with the "new school", if I manage to get a good grip in complex mathematical concepts and theories and also be able to adjust and exploit based on some abilities that are often connoted as "old school", then I think I will become a very capable poker player.

      Cheers!
      DedoMassivo
    • TEXASDUKE1
      TEXASDUKE1
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.04.2017 Posts: 9
      Thank you for your reply.
      I dont much time right now but will get back to this thread tomorrow.
      I type well obviously , and not very fast I will post more on things and we can get some good in depth concepts and thought processes going . I feel you need to be open minded and clear of thought to even start playing good poker. learning good reading skills to recognise when you make a mistake or it was just bad play ( yours / opponents ). Accepting this ( witch most people dont like to hear to talk about if it points to themselves)to move on and be what I call getting a good flow in the game.
      Learning abilities to do things we when started playing poker think it is impossible. example putting a player on a hand as soon as possible. Tightening ranges to 3 or less hands preflop based on previous play. example : early position the player calls then calls raise ( why? )
      what hand range does this type of player have to have to feel he can call in early position.
      now what do I do if I choose to play ? oh wait no math or EV values at this point :)
      Does my moves make a difference in which this player will react ?
      Ok you get my idea on this. We have humans playing this game and can always be influenced to do things knowingly or unknowingly.
      They also have to make a decision that can be computed with math ( math decision makers )
      Also worried or scared decision makers. understand just this alone can make for good decisions and play alone.
      Sorry no hole cards were mentioned either :)
      talking about things like this and getting in depth under standing, this has made my game very strong .

      good skill in your games :)
      It not what you have but they think you have :)
    • STLfan
      STLfan
      Basic
      Joined: 03.04.2017 Posts: 32
      Intelligence - a high mental and cognitive capacity. It describes a “good thinker”.

      Competence – possession of adequate skill, knowledge, experience, and capacity. Note the word is adequate, not exceptional. Essentially, it describes a “good-enough doer” (Hines, 1995), (Intelligence vs. Competence, 1995), (http://eqi.org/edi91.htm).

      The reason to start with the above information was to forward additional information as this relates to what this player has been and continues to work on; especially because of the original starter of this thread. This player again will give thanks for the thread opening my mind up again for aspirations to continue to reach.

      This has much to do about how randomness of a players post has grabbed the attention of why the absence of my posting until my random time to come back to find the “decision tree” thread.

      Understanding there are 6000 different emotions, accepting management of them as this relates to the start of this thread, as well as how this relates to committing a mistake, mistakefullness, against the game.

      Sinfulness through our individual decisions, or knowledge of sin then making a decision, the result, sinfulness as this relates to real life when making an informed decision right or wrong, good or evil.

      The context of words as we relate to emotion, the better the word smith then, better the ability of competence of words allows this to move forward towards intelligence to make better informed decisions.

      From intelligence would then just as routines form patterns of existence, this also will form better or worse instincts depending on which side of the coin, as this would pertain in scenarios of competence vs. intelligence.

      The first stage is to understand the journey of learning new words the Pandora’s Box this will open when experiencing new information, the context, and meanings of how to use these words as this pertains to real life as well as at the table.

      This has opened up my mind’s eye of how my life decisions now come into perspective of honest thought, philosophical debate of the decisions made throughout my life, the abyss could be entered by disbelief, falseness of acceptance, rationalizing my decisions to fit the past.

      A biased account of words to form a false thought process at and away from the table, or each day of my life moving forward past this sentence?

      Jared Tendler’s book The Mental Game Of Poker, helps with understanding, a path, but the burden still is on the player to improve in areas in which tilt for example can be miss-identified or the words be defined wrong. This book has helped to define words, topics, concepts, as to how to take the burden off the player to realize we are all faced with what is described in his book, so eloquently.

      Psychology, allows my mind’s eye to identify the conditions in which behavior is the first stage of recognizing either the opponent’s upcoming decision might be what they hold etc...

      Philosophy, will acknowledge what psychology understands that allows for philosophy to get closer to the truth, a fragment of the absolute. Because there are very few absolutes in poker, life, this part also includes showdown or last betting cycle after river card.

      Researcher, student of the game, this part will keep my ego in check to allow for unbiased account of how the hand(s) plays out, what they have as some examples.

      This to give reliability, validity to my decisions, opponents decisions, because of the methodology of qualitative observation, a test and measurement of abilities of my game, my opponent’s game plays out over repeated decisions, the long run of decision making within the framework of poker, life.

      Just in life, poker, tendencies will repeat themselves, just as how hands start and end by how opponents, my game will repeat scenarios over and over that form certain existences within poker, and life.

      Just as math players understand numbers, the variance of numbers, emotion for some of them are non-existent because of acceptance of what they know good and bad. Wall Street, people who work there understand this probably better than most.

      The sub-journey for this player is to add words, the context of their meaning, possibly how to use them as a verb, noun, as some examples to understand more in-depth the meaning of emotion and what it can mean within certain frameworks of sentences or standalone concepts.

      For example, The Concept of Anxiety, Soren Kierkegaard is the God Father of existentialism, however, the burden is still on my game to become an existential thinker. By just stating this does not make me an existential thinker? But just like my journeys in life now my game has existentialism to flank my poker game as well.

      Every journey, decision, session, day in a life, has an end game even though, the meaning might change through the main journey, the end game to survive until the end has to have focus, and with focus, emotion is needed to use our abilities to their best.

      However, most only use 6-12 emotions over and over just to gain unconscious competence of the ones my game will use is needed, then to expand on developing, managing to gain emotional intelligence of them to manage them in the moment.

      Develop as many as my mind’s eye can use with my end game to survive in poker, to continue into the next existence after this life?