Q978ss BB defense

    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,871
      Party, $1/$2 Pot Limit Omaha Cash, 5 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      SB: $104.35 (52.2 bb)
      Hero (BB): $432 (216 bb)
      MP: $129 (64.5 bb)
      CO: $390.91 (195.5 bb)
      BTN: $351.49 (175.7 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BB with :9d: :Qc: :7d: :8h:
      2 folds, BTN raises to $7, SB folds, Hero calls $5

      Flop: ($15) :8s: :Td: :Th: (2 players)
      Hero checks, BTN bets $4.27, Hero calls $4.27

      Turn: ($23.54) :8d: (2 players)
      Hero checks, BTN checks

      River: ($23.54) :4h: (2 players)
      Hero bets $10, BTN raises to $31.60, Hero calls $21.60

      Villain is a good reg. Aggressive and a good handreader.

      I don't think much needs to be said until the river. I'd like some thoughts as to what our betting range ought to be, our sizing and what do - with the different parts of our range - when facing a raise.

      On the river I deliberately chose a size I thought looked like thin value. Perhaps a size I would use with KK type hands. Given how the hand played out - especially villain's turn check - I felt it was reasonable to call the raise, but perhaps you have other thoughts?

      Thanks
  • 10 replies
    • SeagalSteven
      SeagalSteven
      Silver
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 832
      Fold preflop.

      River you're betting T and FHs (with probably bigger sizing), 8 and maybe KK (AA probably 3b pre). Bluffs would be something with no shdv that wants villain to fold 99 or whatever.

      Again when you bet such small sizing to induce a bluffraise, you're obviously going to call it then. And villain reps thin for sure anyway, like TT, AT, A4, 44?
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,871
      I think you're going to be under defending if you fold this hand to most regs' button range; certainly at higher limits. We have 45% equity (vs 50% or more BU open range, getting 2:1.)

      Anyway, what do you think about betting our whole range - including our bluffs - this (smallish) size?

      Btw, villain had A487ds for river'd fh, and we had exactly 45% pre. He found a nice thin river raise due to our sizing choice; but I think we needn't take that as a reason not to choose this size, but simply that we need to fold more often vs such opponents.
    • SeagalSteven
      SeagalSteven
      Silver
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 832
      You're defending too wide if you defend this imo. It doesnt matter that you obviously have equity with any hand when you factor that you cant get to realize that equity always. You're oop, crappy hand, pot raise - fold. With this hand you will hit the flop strongly just too rarely, bad draws, weak two pairs,opponent can push your equity out of the hand.

      It might be that some bad regs open too wide from btn because hey, that's what people did in Texas in ancient history. But Im not sure it's right way to adjust by defending super-wide. I would adjust by 3betting larger portion of my range against such too wide opps.

      I think opponent's raise is standard, he has fullhouse and as the board has two pairs it's very unlikely with his blockers included you have him beat. On the other hand he doesnt have T so it's more likely you have it and can pay him with it. From your side it's quite unfortunate, as he usually doesnt checkback T on the turn and then raise river, and you've 8 blocker.

      With lower price you give him you can expect more herocalls, maybe raise with bluff sometimes. Quite complicated question is it better than bigger raise, maybe it is when you have more Ts, 8s than him? Or not, if you bet more often for value but he will bluffcatch with op's?
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,871
      Well, thing is...our hand is in the top 38% of hands - it's not that crappy. If we're not defending this then it follows we're folding at least 62% of hands - presumably quite a bit more, since you think this is a clear fold. But if we fold more than 70% of hands villain auto profits with an ATC potsize raise. I'd say we're perilously close to playing exploitably tight if we aren't defending this.

      Anyway, on post I agree his raise is standard and good. When you say "Quite complicated question is it better than bigger raise, maybe it is when you have more Ts, 8s than him? " I think I'd agree we have slightly more Tx than he does (because he doesn't barrel turn) but I don't think we have more 8x than he does - or did I misunderstand you?

      Thanks
    • SeagalSteven
      SeagalSteven
      Silver
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 832
      Well, what do you think are reasonable BTN open and BB flat ranges? I would say 50ish +some percents are normal, 60+ high.

      I didnt mean it's clear fold, sorry if I made it sound like that. I think it's quite close and on the edge what the defend what not, now that I think it again you're probably right on this one. I would've guessed having weaker suit makes this hand considerably weaker, but I guess I was wrong. With Q high suit I would say it's clear dedend :)

      I think 8 has still merit to bet turn if he has it. Especially when he has 8 with good kicker like A8. You can have straightdraws, flushdraws, weaker 8s, OPs all that he can get value for or deny equity if you fold these draws. You can of course have some weak Ts in your range that dont like to check-raise OOP on this flop, but he has outs and it's super-unlikely that you now decide to check-raise these hands against 2nd barrel. He can then evaluate river IP.
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 10,933
      You can't just look your all-in equity vs. BTN opening range. That would be ok IF you are sure you are getting to showdown without any playing postflop (preflop all-in is the only case). As in reality you have to play flop, turn and river, you are not going to realize 100% of your equity when you are oop with a hand that has bad playability.

      Against 50% range, you get avg equity of 45% with 100% of hands. Does that mean that against 50% BTN open you defend with 100% of hands?

      Some years ago there was this belief that BB can defend close to 80-100% against BTN open. Now after solvers are in use, that is not the case. In 100bb game, BB should call around 45% against BTN opens and 3bet around 8%.

      In the 100bb preflop ranges I have, that Q987ss is in the hands that are almost a call, but still a fold. Against worse opponent calling makes more sense.
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 10,933
      And what comes to his river raise, that looks a lot like value. If he bluffs, he attacks your bluffs. If there was a flush draw on the flop, I would like your call better. When you bet so small, would you use that same sizing with QJ9x? If you bet bluffs bigger, then you will have a hard time to keep those two sizings somewhat balanced.

      You can easily have trips+ here. I don't see many overpairs in your river betting range. If you bet KK/QQ, what worse hands can call you? That looks like a valuebet with trips+ and when opponent raises I don't think he has a lot of air in his range.
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,871
      Originally posted by Kyyberi
      You can't just look your all-in equity vs. BTN opening range. That would be ok IF you are sure you are getting to showdown without any playing postflop (preflop all-in is the only case). As in reality you have to play flop, turn and river, you are not going to realize 100% of your equity when you are oop with a hand that has bad playability.

      Against 50% range, you get avg equity of 45% with 100% of hands. Does that mean that against 50% BTN open you defend with 100% of hands?

      Some years ago there was this belief that BB can defend close to 80-100% against BTN open. Now after solvers are in use, that is not the case. In 100bb game, BB should call around 45% against BTN opens and 3bet around 8%.

      In the 100bb preflop ranges I have, that Q987ss is in the hands that are almost a call, but still a fold. Against worse opponent calling makes more sense.
      Ok, but we don't need to realise 100% of our preflop equity to justify calling. We just need to do better than folding when we defend hands such as these. Of course, bet/folding this kind of hand on the river is necessary to achieve that :)

      I totally agree that playability is an important issue. I'm not advocating we defend 100%, or even close to it. Fwiw, my total defend vs BU is 60% which is about 7% higher than you advocate, but certainly not all BU raises I face are for pot (I assume your 53% defend is based on Pot raises?), and not all BU raisers are good regs.

      Thanks for the input.
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 10,933
      Yeah, that number is against pot sized open with GTO player. No all are like that :D
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,871
      Ok, let's hope we never get to a world where your typical opponent is that guy ^^ ;)