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K89Tds

    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 8,028
      Party, $1/$2 Pot Limit Omaha Cash, 3 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      SB: $304.23 (152.1 bb)
      Hero (BB): $200 (100 bb)
      BTN: $217.45 (108.7 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BB with :Ks: :9h: :8s: :Th:
      BTN raises to $5, SB raises to $17, Hero calls $15, BTN calls $12

      Flop: ($51) :8h: :3c: :2h: (3 players)
      SB bets $49, Hero raises to $183 and is all-in

      Both opponents are recreational. What do you think about this cold call?

      Postflop ok or something different?
  • 19 replies
    • Shevtshenko
      Shevtshenko
      Black
      Joined: 06.12.2009 Posts: 4,237
      Don't hate folding but also have zero idea of the math :f_confused: Once you get to the flop, i guess jamming is mandatory since button could fold some hands that are stronger than yours, potentially even higher fds.
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 11,155
      Really hard to make profit with cold call 3bet. When we open ourself and call 3bet, it's not profitable (check your graph for calling 3bets). So to make cold call profitable you should be ahead of opponents range and/or have postflop edge.

      Here it's going to be 3way where hero is sandwiched. And the hand is not defined as premium.
    • SeagalSteven
      SeagalSteven
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 893
      How about cold 4b then? :)

      Pretty nice hand if not premium, but would really like to get HU. Can stackoff most flops if getting called (either with eq or bluff is board has small pair ie) and can call 5b jam.

      What would you do Kyyberi if this was perfect ds rundown with J instead of K?
    • Shevtshenko
      Shevtshenko
      Black
      Joined: 06.12.2009 Posts: 4,237
      Originally posted by Kyyberi
      Really hard to make profit with cold call 3bet. When we open ourself and call 3bet, it's not profitable (check your graph for calling 3bets). So to make cold call profitable you should be ahead of opponents range and/or have postflop edge.

      Here it's going to be 3way where hero is sandwiched. And the hand is not defined as premium.
      So you raise/fold this to the 3bet IP?
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 11,155
      I would fold in this situation.

      If we cold call, where does the money come from postflop? What is the logical edge we have, that gives us profits? Hoping to hit better than our opponents is not a strategy.
    • Shevtshenko
      Shevtshenko
      Black
      Joined: 06.12.2009 Posts: 4,237
      When we open ourself and call 3bet, it's not profitable (check your graph for calling 3bets).
      This is the part i was referring. So I guess if you don't think you make money by raise/calling this, your f23b is very high? :f_confused:
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 11,155
      Umm... When we open ourself and then call a 3bet, we are not making overall profit in the long run. But by calling we are losing less than what we would lose if we fold after our open raise (winrate would be -350bb/100).

      If hero had raised this hand, it's automatic call. Now there is another player who has opened, second one 3bets and hero is about to cold call with medium strength hand (in terms of 3bet pots).

      If hero folds this, I don't think his fold to 3bet when he hasn't invested voluntarily any money to the pot isn't too tight. In my mind, you can't really fold too much to 3bets when cold calling.

      I would be quite amazed if someone has decent sample size of cold called 3bets and it's steadily profitable with the 5%-10% range.
    • mathkid
      mathkid
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.03.2013 Posts: 33
      RR from sb position w/ speculative hand and gap at top not at the bottom is risky.

      postflop = you did not flop very well. You have a naked T high flush draw only.

      After you bet and he re pots it , you have to know you are beat. Recreational or not.

      Thank you for posting the hand.
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 8,028
      Ok, makes sense - I understand that you're not saying you would raise/f this pre.

      However, it's not the action itself (calling 3bs) that is unprofitable. It's the fact that the action is typically done with a hand of non-super premium value. After all, when we look at our graph for 4betting, we see that we have an insanely profitable action. But we can't use that logic to say "4b all hands".

      So, question is - with this particular hand - whether to fold pre, flat pre or 4b? If you still think it's a clear fold (I'm happy to accept this), are there any hands that you think can cold call vs 3bs? What factors are important?

      -being in position?
      -being deep?
      -being up against players with clearly defined ranges?
      -being up against bad players?

      What if you have, say, 3 out of 4 of these?

      In the hand I posted, it was 3 handed. Here were the players' hands:

      Results:
      $634.90 pot ($2.00 rake)
      Final Board: :8h: :3c: :2h: :Jc: :Kd:
      SB showed :7s: :6h: :5s: :Jh: and lost (-$217.45 net)
      Hero showed :Ks: :9h: :8s: :Th: and won $598 ($398 net)
      BTN showed :7c: :8d: :3d: :5h: and won $34.90 (-$182.55 net)


      We actually had best hand pre by quite some way, and we will (presumably?) make a good profit itrl by calling in this spot (though clearly we'd make even more profit by 4betting). So this is the tough part. Because it's only a clear fold pre when we know that the raiser and or 3bettor's ranges are tight, unless I'm mistaken?
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 8,028
      Originally posted by mathkid


      After you bet and he re pots it , you have to know you are beat. Recreational or not.

      Agreed. But that wasn't the action.
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 11,155
      Unless stated otherwise we should assume that SB’s 3bet range is strong. Your hand is kind of hand that flops often something but is often also dominated or vulnerable. That’s not the type of hand you would like to have in 3way pot with low SPR. When money goes in on the flop in 3bet pots it’s often 70/30, 60/40 or 55/45 flip. You want to be the one with better equity more often but with this hand it’s not the case.
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 8,028
      Ok, understood. Can you give some examples of hands - if any - that you'd flat in this spot?

      Thanks
    • Shevtshenko
      Shevtshenko
      Black
      Joined: 06.12.2009 Posts: 4,237
      Ran some numbers on this and it looks like folding is probably the right play. Button needs to open very wide and small blind needs to 3bet very wide in order for this to be a profitable call. I guess that's why most players 3bet most of their range from the SB. Just makes it tough to make money with most even strong hands like this... I think you need close to 70% button open range and SB needs to 3bet >25% before you have a call here with this hand.

      edit.

      I didn't look into how well you flop with this hand compared to the two ranges. Maybe this hand becomes a call, given how smooth it flops. But it's quite tricky to quantify.
    • Shevtshenko
      Shevtshenko
      Black
      Joined: 06.12.2009 Posts: 4,237
      Originally posted by Kyyberi
      Umm... When we open ourself and then call a 3bet, we are not making overall profit in the long run. But by calling we are losing less than what we would lose if we fold after our open raise (winrate would be -350bb/100).
      Yea, sure. Was just confused by this previous statement:

      When we open ourself and call 3bet, it's not profitable (check your graph for calling 3bets).
      which i thought you meant as "it's not profitable to call the 3bet".
    • Poker4life2
      Poker4life2
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.12.2017 Posts: 14
      I simply and plainly say: If you cannot get in position with this hand, FOLD.... almost always you will have great difficultly to understand were you standing with this hand. I think with this play you will lose a lot more then win from it.

      K89T ds is great if everyone has folded and you're on the button if you raise and get a 3 bet, and you think the raiser have AA either call or make a small 4 bet if he pots again you can almost be certain he overplays Aces. with position and this hand i think it will be profitable.

      But with this scenario in this hand you should just fold it. You will get better chanses :f_thumbsup:
    • SeagalSteven
      SeagalSteven
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 893
      How could anyone overplay aces if there's a chance to 5bet them?
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 8,028
      Originally posted by Poker4life2


      K89T ds is great if everyone has folded and you're on the button if you raise and get a 3 bet, and you think the raiser have AA either call or make a small 4 bet if he pots again you can almost be certain he overplays Aces. with position and this hand i think it will be profitable.

      :
      Ok, so kind of narrow set of circumstances in which you think this hand is playable... Probably worth stating for the record it's in the top 8th percentile of starting hands.
    • Poker4life2
      Poker4life2
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.12.2017 Posts: 14
      Originally posted by SeagalSteven
      How could anyone overplay aces if there's a chance to 5bet them?
      Depends on the stacks I guess.
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 11,155
      Have to be some 300bb+ deep stacks so that 5bet doesn't give SPR under 2. :f_love: