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Suited connectors highly negative

    • StruxXx
      Joined: 18.12.2015 Posts: 87
      Hello every1.

      I've been doing some analysis over the last year, to see where I stand and what can I improve. I must be honest, havent done this kind of analysis for a while.

      Anyhow, I've realized that my win rate with suited connectors are bad. I mean, worse then that, its awful. Anyhow, over the last year I've been dealt T9s, 98s, 87s and 76s 6 000 times and I've accumulated huge losses on them. To be exact its -45,44 bb/100 on three different levels (NL10, NL20, NL 50!)

      Also I've realized that I'm playing them almost ALWAYS, VPP 78,8 / PFR 58,5 and I do quite a lot of 3bets with them 18,7! My WTSD% is 26, W$TSD% 46,3, AGG% 28,4.

      When I look at the graph the red line is eating any profit made, and its eating it BIG! So apperently I'm doing something really wrong and I would like to know what. Am I not aggressive enough? Should I be doing more double barrels on the turn? Semi bluff check raises?

      Any piece of an advice from players who has suited connectors fairly positive or at least BE would be nice . Am I overplaying those hands (which, apperently it looks like I am). Any specific article or books would be highly helpfull as well.

      Thanks a lot for the read

      Ps Dont ask me for suited gappers :f_mad:
  • 7 replies
    • la55i
      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 7,951
      Hi StruxXx,

      Sorry for the late reply.
      What is your EV bb/100 with those hands?
      You could be 3betting villains who don't fold much vs 3bets with these hands. In those cases your range should be more linear. If your red line is shooting down, maybe you are not aggressive enough. Maybe you give up your draws too easily?

      It is quite difficult to say what is the problem without seeing how you play those hands. And I think it still could be variance.
    • StruxXx
      Joined: 18.12.2015 Posts: 87
      Originally posted by la55i
      Hi StruxXx,

      Sorry for the late reply.
      What is your EV bb/100 with those hands?

      I can't find the EV bb/100 hand in HM2 (tbh I dont know how ?( ), but I found out that I'm running only €12 euros below EV, which we can conclude that its not variance.

      I've noticed that with those hands I'm negative in this month as well, even though I'm running quite hot with 2 digits bb/100 on NL50!

      I've also realised that only position in which Im winning with those hands is on the BTN. Every other position is heavily negative! And by that I mean they are overall -40-60 bb/100! That is HUGE!
    • VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 10,715
      Yeah, I think that those numbers are way above average for Suited Connectors.
      Oh -- are we talking cash games or tournaments?

      For me those hands are used:
      :diamond:   RFI from CO/BTN vs tight buttons / blinds
      :diamond:   To balance "good" hands
      :diamond:   To call min-bets in BB (esp if SB completes)
      :diamond:   (rarely) to flat UTG open raises

      What report did you use (PT4 or HM2 and what report?)
      I just had a look and surprisingly my VPIP for SCs (> = 54s) my overall V/P is 68%/47%
      My results in tournaments are seemingly good though -- so good that I think I'm doing something wrong.

      I don't play Hold'em cash enough for any data to be meaningful, but my VPIP/PFR w/ SCs (all of them this time) is 70/48 -- so similar to yours. My winrate appears to be 0.72 BB/100

      Remember that part of the value of these hands is balancing your ranges -- so losing here opens widens your perceived range to villains -- and hopefully they will call you wider and thus you win more when you do have the nuts. I also notice that in my cash game stats, I'm having only WTSD of 28%, and a WSD of 46% . My aggression with these hands is high, too -- I don't know if that means much.

    • Tomaloc
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 7,020
      i suppose that you thought of this, but just in case...
      you'll obviously be losing with almost anything from the blinds. are you actually losing from other positions? and in the blinds, do you lose more than you would if you didn't actually play them?
    • VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 10,715
      Yeah, good point. Unfortunately, the report I ran did not separate by position.
      It would be worth a check though...
    • montel111
      Joined: 18.01.2018 Posts: 2
      I would be curious which postition you are playing them from also.
    • Iscre4m
      Joined: 13.12.2017 Posts: 76

      SC's are great x/r hands, where opponent's range is wide and cbets too much = print money OOP. (I raise low/mid pairs too. Backdoor SD and FD are nice, too. SD, GS too ofc.) I don't necessarily have to have connected with flop to x/r, though.


      BB vs SB should be in a CC range and + EV. Raise flops and turns as semibluff.

      BU as a caller is harder, because of no initiative, but look for weak tight players and float. (No card poker)

      BU 3bet vs players who are capable of giving up OTF or preflop. (If low WTSD, then 2barrell).

      X/r - i use math and don't worry if my bluff gets called. It doesn't need to work too often.

      I actually checked my database.

      As PFR (raise first in) suited connectors are:
      - UTG = 67s-T9s, JTs+
      - MP =98s + (87s and lower are -EV)
      - CO 54s+ = +EV
      - BU 32s+ = +EV

      Cold call:
      I'm doing too much stuff from BU and need to investigate further. It seems that it might be close to BE in longterm, but they make HERO's perceived range wider and flop raise bluffs vs value are in ~ balance at least. So, no big winner and not advisable to play just for fun. Need to look for weak players who cbet too much and give up OTT.

      BB defense vs CO, BU seems ok, since less than -100bb/100.
      BB defence vs SB should show a proffit, since we are IP with wide range vs wide range (and our equity vs Villain's opening range is great) and good playability.

      3bet: I'm losin a ton and need to invetigate further. Especially BU and BB.

      My conclusion (with small overview) about small - mid SC's:

      1. SC's play best in small pots (big SPR) with initiative and IP;
      2. SC's play reasonably well in small pots (big SPR) with initiative and OOP;

      3. SC's play badly in 3bet pots (lowSPR) with initiative and IP; (K9s, QTs is better than 65s-T9s)
      4. SC's play badly in called 3bet pots (lowSPR) without initiative and OOP;

      5. SC's play OK in cold called pots (high SPR) where ranges are wide (BB vs SB, BB vs BU).

      Edit: SPR - stack to pot ratio