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[NL10] AJo ~ Misplayed

    • DecMate
      DecMate
      Gold
      Joined: 25.01.2009 Posts: 1,410
      PokerStars - $0.10 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

      BTN: 117.3 BB (VPIP: 36.67, PFR: 26.67, 3Bet Preflop: 22.22, Hands: 62)
      SB: 91.6 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 1)
      BB: 117.8 BB (VPIP: 21.05, PFR: 18.42, 3Bet Preflop: 13.89, Hands: 79)
      Hero (UTG): 133 BB
      MP: 103.9 BB (VPIP: 18.87, PFR: 15.09, 3Bet Preflop: 12.50, Hands: 53)
      CO: 67.5 BB (VPIP: 17.95, PFR: 12.82, 3Bet Preflop: 6.25, Hands: 39)

      SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

      Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A:heart: J:diamond:

      Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, BTN calls 3 BB, fold, fold

      Flop: (7.5 BB, 2 players) 2:heart: 5:diamond: 8:heart:
      Hero checks, BTN bets 4 BB, Hero calls 4 BB

      Turn: (15.5 BB, 2 players) 4:heart:
      Hero checks, BTN bets 9 BB, Hero calls 9 BB

      River: (33.5 BB, 2 players) 5:heart:
      Hero bets 21.3 BB, BTN raises to 101.3 BB and is all-in, fold

      BTN wins 72.7 BB


      So I played this absolutely horribly.
      I thought on the flop we have good backdoors so I think we can x/c here.
      But should I have x/r the turn?
      And the river when we hit, bet/fold?
  • 21 replies
    • imfar
      imfar
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      Joined: 20.07.2009 Posts: 2,745
      Maybe I am missing something but why don't cBet this? You still have backdoors + some FE.
    • TakingAShot
      TakingAShot
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.05.2017 Posts: 397
      Yeah, this is definitely a bad one. c/c, c/c, large donk looks like exactly what it was: Spew. As imfar points out, you absolutely want to be cbetting this flop. You're the preflop aggressor and you just totally handed the initiative over to villain. Further, if you're going to raise as wide as AJo UTG, you might want to consider raising to 3.5x-4x.
    • DecMate
      DecMate
      Gold
      Joined: 25.01.2009 Posts: 1,410
      Originally posted by TakingAShot
      Further, if you're going to raise as wide as AJo UTG,
      AJ is a standard open.

      Originally posted by imfar
      Maybe I am missing something but why don't cBet this? You still have backdoors + some FE.
      Um. I'm not sure how I didn't think to c-bet this. Not sure what I was thinking.
      Guess I should of just c-bet lol
    • TakingAShot
      TakingAShot
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.05.2017 Posts: 397
      Originally posted by DecMate
      Originally posted by TakingAShot
      Further, if you're going to raise as wide as AJo UTG,
      AJ is a standard open.

      Originally posted by imfar
      Maybe I am missing something but why don't cBet this? You still have backdoors + some FE.
      Um. I'm not sure how I didn't think to c-bet this. Not sure what I was thinking.
      Guess I should of just c-bet lol
      1) AJo is not a standard UTG open. Perhaps it is in your ranges but I can assure you that the population generally folds this pre.

      2) If you're not sure why you didn't cbet, what was accomplished? So, next time you'll cbet a similar flop just because this hand, where you didn't cbet, didn't work out well?

      I've said it once and I'll say it again: Some of you need to legitimately invest in poker training either here or somewhere else. You can't learn what you need to learn today for free. You're attempting to play 10NL+ with absolutely no foundation in place.
    • DecMate
      DecMate
      Gold
      Joined: 25.01.2009 Posts: 1,410
      According to w34z3ls preflop ranges, yes actually it is.
      And before you go into making assumptions about players you don't know, I've actually had coaching off of weasel and I post hands regular. :f_thumbsup:

      I was just looking for an outside opinion on the hand, which I got, without the attitude.:f_drink:
    • DecMate
      DecMate
      Gold
      Joined: 25.01.2009 Posts: 1,410
      __:f_cool:
    • Bebabcsinya
      Bebabcsinya
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.12.2016 Posts: 71
      Well to be honest AJo is also a standard open for me from UTG at NL25
    • TakingAShot
      TakingAShot
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.05.2017 Posts: 397
      Originally posted by Bebabcsinya
      Well to be honest AJo is also a standard open for me from UTG at NL25
      What % of the time? 100%? How do you handle 3x+ 3bets behind you? You're calling 3bets OOP with AJo from UTG?
    • Bebabcsinya
      Bebabcsinya
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      Joined: 01.12.2016 Posts: 71
      Always. 4 betting or folding with AJo
    • TakingAShot
      TakingAShot
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      Joined: 29.05.2017 Posts: 397
      Originally posted by Bebabcsinya
      Always. 4 betting or folding with AJo
      Fair enough. I don't think it's like outrageous to open AJo UTG or anything but to include it in a 100% OR and 4b/fold range doesn't seem +EV to me.

      Anyone else care to chime in on this? I open AJo UTG, too but it's based off of table dynamics, etc. It's in my range, just only about 20% of the time.
    • DecMate
      DecMate
      Gold
      Joined: 25.01.2009 Posts: 1,410
      Originally posted by TakingAShot
      Originally posted by Bebabcsinya
      Always. 4 betting or folding with AJo
      Fair enough. I don't think it's like outrageous to open AJo UTG or anything but to include it in a 100% OR and 4b/fold range doesn't seem +EV to me.

      Anyone else care to chime in on this? I open AJo UTG, too but it's based off of table dynamics, etc. It's in my range, just only about 20% of the time.
      I open AJo+ 78s+ A2-5s//A10s+
      This is zoom i'm playing
    • TakingAShot
      TakingAShot
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.05.2017 Posts: 397


      So, if you start with something like that and the table is just not actively 3betting, then I think you can open it up wider and wider until there's an adjustment. AJo just isn't exactly what I want to be getting the money in with or in 3b/4b pots OOP post flop.
    • la55i
      la55i
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 7,903
      Interesting hand..

      Originally posted by imfar
      Maybe I am missing something but why don't cBet this? You still have backdoors + some FE.
      BTN should call UTG open with tight-ish range. He has pocket pairs that will not fold vs a single bet, and overcards might not fold either. We have backdoor draws but in reality those are not super strong. Villains range also has all of the nuts here. so, 1) our range advantage is not that huge 2) we don't have the nut range advantage 3) we are out of position ---> GTO approach would be to check almost our whole range. I checked this with a solver and it suggests we check 93% of our range here. This hand can be cbet with some frequency because we have that nut backdoor flush draw, but it will play just fine as a check call or a check raise with some frequency.

      Originally posted by TakingAShot
      As imfar points out, you absolutely want to be cbetting this flop.
      I can totally agree with a cbet. It is ok. But I wouldn't say we absolutely want to cbet this 100% of the time.

      Originally posted by TakingAShot
      1) AJo is not a standard UTG open. Perhaps it is in your ranges but I can assure you that the population generally folds this pre.
      Standard open for me. Standard open in weazels ranges. Same thing in Matthew Janda's ranges provided in his book Applications of No-Limit Holdem. And for PokerSnowie. And also standard open in Robmaf's book Redline Ninja Preflop. And in The Grinder's Manual by Peter Clarke.

      All of the preflop charts I found include AJo in UTG opening range. I also did some player pool analysis some time back and the population at Stars between NL2-NL25 open 17% on average from UTG.

      Originally posted by TakingAShot
      What % of the time? 100%? How do you handle 3x+ 3bets behind you? You're calling 3bets OOP with AJo from UTG?
      I open quite tight from UTG so I mainly call 3bets with pocket pairs, AK and AQs. AJo is always a fold for me.

      Whether that is a +EV open or not, I can't really comment. My sample size is still too small to be sure if it is making profit or not.

      And to the hand, OTR I probably wouldn't donk because 1) the board paired 2) your hand is super obvious. When he raises you now, I think he is very strong. He must hate money if he raises you with a weaker flush on a paired board. So I think it is ok to fold.
    • TakingAShot
      TakingAShot
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      Joined: 29.05.2017 Posts: 397
      Originally posted by DecMate
      Originally posted by TakingAShot
      Originally posted by Bebabcsinya
      Always. 4 betting or folding with AJo
      Fair enough. I don't think it's like outrageous to open AJo UTG or anything but to include it in a 100% OR and 4b/fold range doesn't seem +EV to me.

      Anyone else care to chime in on this? I open AJo UTG, too but it's based off of table dynamics, etc. It's in my range, just only about 20% of the time.
      I open AJo+ 78s+ A2-5s//A10s+
      This is zoom i'm playing
      I don't have much experience with zoom or how ranges fluctuate in that kind of setting but I would imagine people are tighter in zoom, no?
    • DecMate
      DecMate
      Gold
      Joined: 25.01.2009 Posts: 1,410
      Originally posted by la55i
      Interesting hand..

      Originally posted by imfar
      Maybe I am missing something but why don't cBet this? You still have backdoors + some FE.
      BTN should call UTG open with tight-ish range. He has pocket pairs that will not fold vs a single bet, and overcards might not fold either. We have backdoor draws but in reality those are not super strong. Villains range also has all of the nuts here. so, 1) our range advantage is not that huge 2) we don't have the nut range advantage 3) we are out of position ---> GTO approach would be to check almost our whole range. I checked this with a solver and it suggests we check 93% of our range here. This hand can be cbet with some frequency because we have that nut backdoor flush draw, but it will play just fine as a check call or a check raise with some frequency.

      Originally posted by TakingAShot
      As imfar points out, you absolutely want to be cbetting this flop.
      I can totally agree with a cbet. It is ok. But I wouldn't say we absolutely want to cbet this 100% of the time.

      Originally posted by TakingAShot
      1) AJo is not a standard UTG open. Perhaps it is in your ranges but I can assure you that the population generally folds this pre.
      Standard open for me. Standard open in weazels ranges. Same thing in Matthew Janda's ranges provided in his book Applications of No-Limit Holdem. And for PokerSnowie. And also standard open in Robmaf's book Redline Ninja Preflop. And in The Grinder's Manual by Peter Clarke.

      All of the preflop charts I found include AJo in UTG opening range. I also did some player pool analysis some time back and the population at Stars between NL2-NL25 open 17% on average from UTG.

      Originally posted by TakingAShot
      What % of the time? 100%? How do you handle 3x+ 3bets behind you? You're calling 3bets OOP with AJo from UTG?
      I open quite tight from UTG so I mainly call 3bets with pocket pairs, AK and AQs. AJo is always a fold for me.

      Whether that is a +EV open or not, I can't really comment. My sample size is still too small to be sure if it is making profit or not.

      And to the hand, OTR I probably wouldn't donk because 1) the board paired 2) your hand is super obvious. When he raises you now, I think he is very strong. He must hate money if he raises you with a weaker flush on a paired board. So I think it is ok to fold.
      Great breakdown.
      You say that snowie says x/c is the best option, but what about playing the turn? X/c also?
    • TakingAShot
      TakingAShot
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      Joined: 29.05.2017 Posts: 397
      Originally posted by DecMate
      Originally posted by la55i
      Interesting hand..

      Originally posted by imfar
      Maybe I am missing something but why don't cBet this? You still have backdoors + some FE.
      BTN should call UTG open with tight-ish range. He has pocket pairs that will not fold vs a single bet, and overcards might not fold either. We have backdoor draws but in reality those are not super strong. Villains range also has all of the nuts here. so, 1) our range advantage is not that huge 2) we don't have the nut range advantage 3) we are out of position ---> GTO approach would be to check almost our whole range. I checked this with a solver and it suggests we check 93% of our range here. This hand can be cbet with some frequency because we have that nut backdoor flush draw, but it will play just fine as a check call or a check raise with some frequency.

      Originally posted by TakingAShot
      As imfar points out, you absolutely want to be cbetting this flop.
      I can totally agree with a cbet. It is ok. But I wouldn't say we absolutely want to cbet this 100% of the time.

      Originally posted by TakingAShot
      1) AJo is not a standard UTG open. Perhaps it is in your ranges but I can assure you that the population generally folds this pre.
      Standard open for me. Standard open in weazels ranges. Same thing in Matthew Janda's ranges provided in his book Applications of No-Limit Holdem. And for PokerSnowie. And also standard open in Robmaf's book Redline Ninja Preflop. And in The Grinder's Manual by Peter Clarke.

      All of the preflop charts I found include AJo in UTG opening range. I also did some player pool analysis some time back and the population at Stars between NL2-NL25 open 17% on average from UTG.

      Originally posted by TakingAShot
      What % of the time? 100%? How do you handle 3x+ 3bets behind you? You're calling 3bets OOP with AJo from UTG?
      I open quite tight from UTG so I mainly call 3bets with pocket pairs, AK and AQs. AJo is always a fold for me.

      Whether that is a +EV open or not, I can't really comment. My sample size is still too small to be sure if it is making profit or not.

      And to the hand, OTR I probably wouldn't donk because 1) the board paired 2) your hand is super obvious. When he raises you now, I think he is very strong. He must hate money if he raises you with a weaker flush on a paired board. So I think it is ok to fold.
      Great breakdown.
      You say that snowie says x/c is the best option, but what about playing the turn? X/c also?
      That's why I'm wondering why high level pros would consider AJo standard from UTG. You're folding to any resistance preflop and postflop, you're oop and very often dominated.
    • la55i
      la55i
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      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 7,903
      I didn't use Snowie this time. I used CardRunnersEV. If we check call the flop and check the turn, then this hand would be used in our x/r range very often, assuming villain bets about 2/3 on both streets.
    • TakingAShot
      TakingAShot
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.05.2017 Posts: 397
      Originally posted by la55i
      I didn't use Snowie this time. I used CardRunnersEV. If we check call the flop and check the turn, then this hand would be used in our x/r range very often, assuming villain bets about 2/3 on both streets.
      This is actually exactly the kind of spot a lot of weazels newest material covers. I just have to get a lot more familiar with and proficient in using CREV. I have the GTO+ solver with it now, as well.

      As for UTG/AJo: Maybe I have a leak in that I'm too tight UTG. I've suspected this. At the same time, 17% from UTG seems really loose to me. Isn't it?
    • la55i
      la55i
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      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 7,903
      Yea I would say that 17% is quite loose. Personally I do something like 14%.

      And btw I used a larger sample to see how profitable opening AJo is from UTG. It is still only about 400 hands so it can have a lot of variance. Hand2Note says the action profit of opening that hand is +0.2 or something like that. Action profit is the difference between our stack size at the end of the hand and our stack size right before the action. So in this hand sample it is making some money.
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