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[NL10] 89s ~ River fold

    • DecMate
      DecMate
      Gold
      Joined: 25.01.2009 Posts: 1,421
      PokerStars - $0.10 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

      BTN: 100 BB (VPIP: 13.04, PFR: 4.35, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 24)
      SB: 110.2 BB
      BB: 105.5 BB (VPIP: 9.09, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 12)
      UTG: 146.4 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 20.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 15)
      Hero (MP): 107 BB
      CO: 141 BB (VPIP: 22.43, PFR: 20.56, 3Bet Preflop: 16.13, Hands: 110)

      SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

      Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 8:spade: 9:spade:

      fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, CO calls 3 BB, fold, SB calls 2.5 BB, fold

      Flop: (10 BB, 3 players) 7:heart: 5:club: Q:heart:
      SB checks, Hero checks, CO bets 5.8 BB, fold, Hero calls 5.8 BB

      Turn: (21.6 BB, 2 players) 6:spade:
      Hero checks, CO bets 12.4 BB, Hero raises to 32 BB, CO calls 19.6 BB

      River: (85.6 BB, 2 players) 3:heart:
      Hero checks, CO bets 100.2 BB and is all-in, fold

      CO wins 81.7 BB


      My thinking process is what is he shipping for value when the flush hits, other then a flush. He calls the x/r which reps a lot of strength too.
      Thoughts?
  • 11 replies
    • Talisker74
      Talisker74
      Gold
      Joined: 17.08.2009 Posts: 1,321
      well hard decision to find a fold here...
      i guess fold is correct, because the ship is for value...
      the question is, is it every time the flush, or is villain able to overplay hands here?
      Can he shove here AQ or any sets?
    • KingKlaas
      KingKlaas
      Silver
      Joined: 12.12.2008 Posts: 1,256
      Fold flop, i only see 3 clean outs for the turn.
      You are very lucky you hit on the turn..
    • la55i
      la55i
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 7,915
      I think check calling the flop with 6 clean outs and not even bdfd is not the best play.
      OTR villains shove can be a bluff and it should be a bluff. What to do here depends a bit on what kind of a range we want to give villain, is it balanced or value heavy. But anyway, without analyzing this more I would say fold is ok.
    • nitrol
      nitrol
      Silver
      Joined: 24.07.2010 Posts: 11,958
      We can fold flop. On river I prefer the fold. We will see a flush more times than a bluff.
    • CucumbaMan
      CucumbaMan
      Silver
      Joined: 13.10.2017 Posts: 206
      I think the flop call is a pretty close one. It could be dangerous, because as others mentioned, if you hit your straight, but it's a heart, you are not in a good spot. I think the river is a fold.
    • Varune
      Varune
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.04.2009 Posts: 5,443
      Why no cbet?
    • CucumbaMan
      CucumbaMan
      Silver
      Joined: 13.10.2017 Posts: 206
      Originally posted by Varune
      Why no cbet?
      I'm not sure if cbetting in a three-way pot is a good idea, with just a gutshot straight draw on this draw heavy board. Almost all the hands that can call here has you beat.
    • Varune
      Varune
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.04.2009 Posts: 5,443
      Originally posted by CucumbaMan
      Originally posted by Varune
      Why no cbet?
      I'm not sure if cbetting in a three-way pot is a good idea, with just a gutshot straight draw on this draw heavy board. Almost all the hands that can call here has you beat.
      We're not betting to be called ofc. By betting we still have a good chunk of Foldequity, By playing x/c we're giving that way of winning all up which is way worse.
      In other words: If we x/c we're fishing for 3 outs with 0 foldequity.

      SB has to play rather faceup as he's OOP vs 2 players, so he's easy to deal with.

      IMO if we open this from UTG/MP and start check/calling these boards we're very easy to play against.
    • TakingAShot
      TakingAShot
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.05.2017 Posts: 397
      Congrats on your Gold sub, OP. If you really study that material and continue to post like this, you will no question begin to crush 10NL.
    • TakingAShot
      TakingAShot
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.05.2017 Posts: 397
      Originally posted by Varune
      Originally posted by CucumbaMan
      Originally posted by Varune
      Why no cbet?
      I'm not sure if cbetting in a three-way pot is a good idea, with just a gutshot straight draw on this draw heavy board. Almost all the hands that can call here has you beat.
      We're not betting to be called ofc. By betting we still have a good chunk of Foldequity, By playing x/c we're giving that way of winning all up which is way worse.
      In other words: If we x/c we're fishing for 3 outs with 0 foldequity.

      SB has to play rather faceup as he's OOP vs 2 players, so he's easy to deal with.

      IMO if we open this from UTG/MP and start check/calling these boards we're very easy to play against.
      There's an ebb and flow, a reaction and overreaction, to everything in this game. Cbetting has toned down significantly with ranges and frequencies becoming far more balanced over the last couple of years. Naturally, this has led to many players under cbetting in many situations and working themselves into terrible reverse implied odds situations on the turn and river.

      On this play, you're spot on, IMO. Cbet this flop and more than likely take it down there. The worst thing that happens is you face resistance which clearly narrows ranges and makes a future lay down very easy.
    • LemOn36
      LemOn36
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 07.02.2009 Posts: 1,957
      I'd probably check it and mix in some check/raises here and folds
      Especially vs check bet+call the CO will be in a terrible spot and both should give you a bunch of credit

      I ran it through snowie and the check/call is like razor thin +ev here
      You're not really looking at what you're drawing to only, but what your range looks like really so you can later turn the hand into a bluff
      And when you check call here you really shouldn't have much air at all - stronger draws are cbetting or check raising, it's not like you can check/call other weaker hands so what remains are hands like KQ with Kh you checked and other Qx that you want to be checking here multiway.

      And when your range composition is almost only made hands it's actually okay to add even some weaker floats like this one


      It's of course problematic as it's NL10 and you don't know the guy and he can call you with Khi when you go check call and bet the river, even though it should be pretty obvious you have very little air after check calling flop like that
      And the high rake just makes these thin plays meh.
      But it's a play I'd definitely consider at my stakes and don't do it enough