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Q876ds

    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 8,028
      Poker Stars, $1/$2 Pot Limit Omaha Cash, 6 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      SB: $84.85 (42.4 bb)
      BB: $188.67 (94.3 bb)
      UTG: $155.65 (77.8 bb)
      MP: $462.20 (231.1 bb)
      Hero (CO): $200 (100 bb)
      BTN: $206.25 (103.1 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is CO with :8s: :Qh: :7h: :6s:
      2 folds, Hero raises to $7, BTN raises to $24, 2 folds, Hero calls $17

      Flop: ($51) :6c: :2s: :Qd: (2 players)
      Hero checks, BTN bets $36.34, Hero calls $36.34

      Turn: ($123.68) :3h: (2 players)
      Hero checks, BTN checks

      River: ($123.68) :Th: (2 players)
      Hero bets $120.93, BTN folds




      Villain is a reg, though not sure whether good or not. 27/27, 7.9% 3b 400 hands. Aggression 2.8 Same guy as in this hand

      I wanted to give villain room to bluff off in case he is capable of it, hence just calling dryish flop. If 6 was :6d: would you already prefer x/r?

      What size would you like to lead this river, or would you ever consider checking again?

      Thanks
  • 13 replies
    • Shevtshenko
      Shevtshenko
      Black
      Joined: 06.12.2009 Posts: 4,237
      Don't think the description matches the hand.


      I think flop and turn are good. River you probably have to call unless you check lots of boats ott. What do you think about c/ring ott with some fd+wrap combos and some 88/44 boats?

      I guess the argument for folding would be that it's tough to be bluffing in this spot as the CO. Kx probably doesn't bluff and tough to have 84/J8/J4 without having a flush for the next best blockers.
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 8,028
      My apologies - have fixed the hand - thanks in advance for a second look. :)
    • Shevtshenko
      Shevtshenko
      Black
      Joined: 06.12.2009 Posts: 4,237
      If you check river, it looks like you have Qx or KK most of the time but certainly some slowplays too. Without history, I wouldn't expect villain to bet AA for value otr. Not sure you even need to defend many of your Qx combos facing a river bet. The question really is that what's your bluffing range otr? Are you turning QJ/KQ into a bluff? I would guess you should (especially for this river size) but not sure if most people do in practice.
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 8,028
      I agree that most of our Qx/KK hands will check the river, hoping that villain has given up.

      I guess 6789 with 2 bd fds is a hand we will get to the river with taking this line. I'm not sure if that's a hand we'll want to make this largish bet with - but probably since it's a lot lower in our range than QJ (even though our blockers are less good).
    • SeagalSteven
      SeagalSteven
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 893
      I would just check - raise flop here.

      When you check-call this is what often happen many cards ott playing oop, villain takes his free card. Board doesnt look threatning otf for you, but when it goes to river like here you're often unsure what to do on many run-outs.

      It is a board where you really wont have many 2prs but pair + draws, so villain can stackoff more lightly when only 100bb deep.
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 8,028
      Concern for me is how we can show up with enough bluffs on such a dry board when wecx/r. In theory we can have some 3456 (but we're not opening all from CO though) or some Q345 (again - it's not a big part of our range, I guess). But mostly when we x/r here it's going to be 2p+, imo. And I'd guess if villain has bare AA/KK here he doesn't usually bet to gii when facing a x/r unless the x/r is known to spew. So we x/r and our opponent folds a all his air and a good deal of his value, too.

      Do we not also need to think about protecting our KK/Qx range a little, vs regs?

      Thanks
    • SeagalSteven
      SeagalSteven
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 893
      Well if you think villain will actually fold great deal of his value hands, just start raising decent amount of pair from the board + decent bds. Like that 6789ds, you will have 45ish against dry aces, 40% against any AA range.

      I see really no problem finding semibluffs against opponent that bet-folds his valuehands :) If you raise only those pair + monster wraps, not even this 2prs, I think youre playing too passive.

      With Qxxx you've more incentive to actually see turn, you will hit your top 2prs or bd draws, villain can give you free cards ott. If you have KK that should be pretty elite KK calling 3b oop so you will have also good bd draws to go with it, I dont see us calling pre and flop with bad KK.
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 8,028
      Ok, I agree about bluff raising a lot more against such opponents.

      In the current hand - it appears to me - that villain gives up once we call flop. So don't we need to defend most of our KK and Qxxx (that we called preflop) passively vs this non pot cbet? Aren't we making his life too easy if we just x/f such hands getting nearly 2.5:1?

      tx
    • Shevtshenko
      Shevtshenko
      Black
      Joined: 06.12.2009 Posts: 4,237
      Originally posted by Tim64
      Ok, I agree about bluff raising a lot more against such opponents.

      In the current hand - it appears to me - that villain gives up once we call flop. So don't we need to defend most of our KK and Qxxx (that we called preflop) passively vs this non pot cbet? Aren't we making his life too easy if we just x/f such hands getting nearly 2.5:1?

      tx
      Depends on your preflop strategy. Seems like SS is saying he folds lots of KK-combos preflop, so he usually has more than just naked KK on that board. But to your question, yes, i think there's no way we can or should fold KK or Qx otf if we want to deny villain from autoprofiting otf.
    • SeagalSteven
      SeagalSteven
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 893
      Now why would you even consider folding Qxxx here? :) As I said Qxxx that isnt two pairs or good wrap dont mind seeing turn, as you can hit top2, add a draw or get a free river card. So if not raising against incredibly tight players you should call.

      And yeah, I'm not calling any ragged KK preflop OOP 100bb deep against normal regs, so that hand too has equity, some bds and playability on later streets. If you defend ragged KK I guess you're not doing it just for set-mining, so calling is the only option anyway as you called preflop thinking your ragged KK might be the best hand at that point?
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 8,028
      Agreed. We're not defending ragged KK pre. And not always opening them to begin with vs aggro BU! But still, we'll have some KK which, on this board, are nothing but an overpair. Just checking that you're not advocating folding such hands on the flop?
    • SeagalSteven
      SeagalSteven
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 893
      No I'm not. If you've KK here I would call this flop bet.
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 11,158
      Without further reads I would just c-raise flop. SPR 3,5 what do we achieve with calling oop? If you call, he isn’t bluffing the turn with SPR 1. So most of the times he gets to see the river for free and you have a bluff catcher on the river.

      What is your raise range on these boards?