My sng strategy - advices and comments very welcome

    • shija
      shija
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.02.2009 Posts: 17
      First of all sorry for my bad English, and sorry for this veeeery long post (It doesn't suppose to be so long, but when I started I couldn't stop :-) )

      I'm playing poker for little longer then a year, and I realized one thing. There are days when everything is on your side. Very little, or not at all bad beats, you are playing good, cards likes you... On the other side, there are days when everything is against you, you are playing bad, getting awful cards, and every idiot will hit flush or straight on river, no matter how well you played.

      Since I'm playing only sng tournaments (very little mtt, and cash tables not at all) I have excel file where I'm writing every game I played. From those statistics I made a conclusion that I'm not playing so bad like my bankroll shows. Under normal circumstances I have ROI around 20-25% on $5 and $10 sng, but problem is that my bank is not going up, but down (on long period). So analyzing those games I realized that on days when I'm doing bad, I'm loosing much more, then I'm winning on good days. And when I have a bad day, then I'm loosing my discipline too, I'm doing bad moves, pushing, and in one bad day, I'm "killing" 7 days of profit. (Mostly because I'm playing much more games, since I'm finishing faster.)

      And, my conclusion is simple: I must find a way to win more on good days, then I will loose on bad days. I was thinking how to do it since I don't have such discipline to stand up from computer when I'm doing bad (If I have it, then this text would be useless ;-) ), and then came on my mind to try to adopt some variation of progressive system from sports betting to poker game (I'm still testing this system, that's why all suggestions and critics are welcome).
      This is probably nothing new, but I never heard smb. is playing that way.

      So, how the system works? As I said before, I'm playing only sng's and only 6 players sng where 3 players are in the money. I choosed this one because it's much easier to came in the money then on 10 people sng, or at 6 players sng where 2 places are paid. (And you will see that "coming in the money" is crucial for this system). I put my bank on 5%. So, I'm starting a day with a tournament that is 5% of my bank (If my bank is $100, I'm starting with $5 entry). If I come in the money, I'm staying on that level. If I loose before money, I'm going one step down. (if I played $10, I'm going on $5). When I win 2 tournaments in "unbroken chain" coming in the money, I'm going one level up (for example: from $5 to $10). I don't need to win 2 in a row. I'm just not allowed to loose in meantime.

      So, for example I'm playing $5 tournaments. One tournament I finish first, I'm staying at that level. Next 3 tournaments I finish 2nd or 3rd (so, in the money), I'm still at the same level. Fifth tournament I finish first again, and then next tournament I'm going one level up; to $10. If I loose any of those tournaments, chain is broken, and next tournament I'm going one level down, and starting a chain again. Every time when I loose I'm going one level down, no matter of previous tournaments. Next day I'm starting again from 5%, no matter how I finished previous day.

      As I said before. I'm still testing it, but in few days I doubled my bank (could be a coincidence, I don't say it isnt), but I already realized one thing. I'm playing with much more caution - in positive way; and I'm more concentrated on every hand, because every game is connected. Before, I was playing some bad moves because I was thinking: OK, if I loose this one, I will start the next one, but now when I know that next one will be at lower level (especially if I was in chain of 6-7 tournaments in a row in the money) I care for every move much more.

      So, every comment is welcome
  • 15 replies
    • viewer88
      viewer88
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2008 Posts: 5,545
      your system makes no sense at all :tongue:

      There are no such things as "bad days" (provided you are not female), you are only experiencing short-term variance.
    • Abe1919
      Abe1919
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.09.2008 Posts: 187
      I get bad days at poker it's called being cold decked,it happens.
    • p0kerQT
      p0kerQT
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 1,300
      @viewer, what does being female have to do with having bad days in poker?
      @Shija i think your system doesn't make sense either.. Firstly you shouldn't be putting 5% of your BR at stake in each sng, thats only 20 buyins, and 20 bi downswings are possible. The minimum buyins you should be playin with is 30. Also why risk playing higher stakes just coz ur on a winning streak, streaks dont always last very long so ur risking all the progress you have made. Read through all the articles n you should become a good player if you learn and apply the strategies provided on here. The bad days should become less, n you will learn to cope with them. The most important things are BRM, discipline and patience.
    • shija
      shija
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.02.2009 Posts: 17
      Originally posted by p0kerQT
      @Shija i think your system doesn't make sense either. Firstly you shouldn't be putting 5% of your BR at stake in each sng, thats only 20 buyins, and 20 bi downswings are possible.
      OK, I know people say that 2-3% is optimal for buyins, and I will change it on higher levels. But for now (on $5 and $10 levels) 5% works well for me. Curently I'm playing by this table:

      buyin bank percent
      1,00 20,00 5%
      2,00 40,00 5%
      5,00 100,00 5%
      10,00 200,00 5%
      20,00 400,00 5%
      30,00 1.000,00 3%
      50,00 1.600,00 3%
      100,00 5.000,00 2%

      And about system. I already said I'm testing it. Could be a crap, I don't say it isn't. That's why I post it here to hear some other opinions.
      As I said I already improved my game thanks to this system, and even if shows that system doesn't make any sense, I already benefit from him :-).
    • nafar84
      nafar84
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.09.2008 Posts: 546
      This assumes you're playing one SnG at a time, right? Doesn't seem practical for multi tabling.

      Also, your main argument is that it has helped you concentrate more on your game and avoid careless plays... so basically you're talking about a purely psychological and subjective aspect in that you're enforcing a "reward & punishment" system on yourself, but I don't see this system being able to prove itself as mathematically better than standard BRM.
    • 8979687
      8979687
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.11.2008 Posts: 2,225
      Now this is an interesting post, and should be used by everyone to reflect just how seriously
      we can be affected mentally by this game. I do not mean to offend you OP, but your
      logic and your way of justifying playing on when you are a losing player sounds excactly
      like an addicted gambler.

      Here you have a site that gives you 100% of the tools and advice you need to become a winning
      player. I mean seriously if you follow everything that is laid out infront of you, you WILL become
      a winning player. Not maybe not you got a chance, YOU WILL.

      Instead of having the discipline needed to do this, you come up with your own scheme
      that seriously does not make sense to most readers, this shows just how twisted someone
      is willing to make things in their mind to justify carrying on gambling.

      I had a friend who played A game at the casino. I forget what it was called it was like poker
      but only against a dealer, so like Blackjack. You could have more players. Anyhow
      this friend got himself some money on this game when he first played it.

      He went back and lost twice as much.

      He went back several times and kept losing.

      He, just like you came up with this insane system that he was going to apply involving
      doubling his bets when he is losing etc etc. Which to me and everyone else sounded insane.

      *EDIT: I just found a similar thing in another thread...

      Originally posted by Dante63s
      Yeah I am so sad I already had a pokerstars account when I found ps.com, I got my starting capital on Mansion and dont like the site. Everybody hits sets, its amazing! So I played roulette... lol... lol...

      After losing some money in the past I made a little system that was working ok, you pick red o black and bet $1, if you win you change color and bet $1 if you lose you bet $2, lose again $4, $8, $16, $32, $64, $128, etc...

      So you win $1 everytime, I played 3 sessions:

      1. $35+
      2. $15+
      3. Had $180 BR but black came 11 times in a row.......... $50 left....

      I also had a huge down on partypoker...

      Anyhow sorry if you took offense to this but I could have spouted the usual shit
      apply BR management and read articles, but you desserve more then just that.
      If you want to stop losing in the long run, stop gambling. Start playing poker
      the way you are taught by this site, applying BR management makes it
      a responsible way to play with your money. You must take the time to learn
      the game the way the pros here are more then willing to teach you in piles of ways.

      If you do not spend time studying and applying what you learn, then you may as well hang
      it up and go play Russian Roulette with an ex hooker crack head who needs a fix, and
      tell her before you play its in your pocket. See how many times she squeezes the
      trigger when it is your turn to have the gun pointed at you.

      Anyhow here is one last tidbit of advice for you concerning the whole reason you came
      up with this plan.......

      You want to make the bad days seem less harmful then the good ones?
      STOP PLAYING!!!! When you are getting hit hard by the cards, and by bad beats.
      Call it a day before you start playing worse and worse trying to make your money back.
      The moment you start to feel your game slip, call it a day. There is always tommorow

      @viewer88: Usually I learn something from reading your posts, but this one was pretty interesting to
      see. Of course you can have bad days in poker. I had a horrible one yesterday and it only took me
      8 SNGs to quit for the day. Some days have way more suckouts and losses going in
      ahead in a row then others. I have had my BR drop $100 in a day, playing $6.50s. From the word go,
      I start losing and I end up stopping. I make most of it back within the next few sessions
      usually. But that day IMO was a bad one. Just like last night was.
    • viewer88
      viewer88
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2008 Posts: 5,545
      Originally posted by 8979687
      If you do not spend time studying and applying what you learn, then you may as well hang
      it up and go play Russian Roulette with an ex hooker crack head who needs a fix, and
      tell her before you play its in your pocket. See how many times she squeezes the
      trigger when it is your turn to have the gun pointed at you.
      :heart: :heart: :heart:
      This is comedy gold
      Like the rest of your post aswell, but you shoulden't be afraid to wander from the pokerstrategy style and experiment for your own. The learning material offered on this site is awesome though, that's for sure :)

      Originally posted by 8979687

      @viewer88: Usually I learn something from reading your posts, but this one was pretty interesting to
      see. Of course you can have bad days in poker. I had a horrible one yesterday and it only took me
      8 SNGs to quit for the day. Some days have way more suckouts and losses going in
      ahead in a row then others. I have had my BR drop $100 in a day, playing $6.50s. From the word go,
      I start losing and I end up stopping. I make most of it back within the next few sessions
      usually. But that day IMO was a bad one. Just like last night was.
      The zen-master never has bad days, he only has normal days with bad result :tongue:
      Folow some sort of BRM that works for you and simply stay confident in your game and get some volume down, profit will come. I wish I could even stop looking at my bankroll after every session to see if I'm up or down, only look like once a week ^^
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      Hi OP,

      I don't play SnGs so only general thoughts:

      I think jumping between levels is not a great idea. There is a skill difference between levels and you should probably only move up when you have mastered the previous level. Consistency of opponents also helps to improve your skill.

      As other people have said - and as you already understand - Bankroll is important and I don't think a bankroll can allow you to play inbetween 2 levels at the same time.

      These are problems with your suggested system, but there is one thing I do like: you say it makes you think more carefully and not act impulsively. That is a real step forward and one of the good things about it.

      So, if you can adapt it so that your BR is ultra safe, you are consistent at one level until your bankroll lets you move up 'permanently' (and not just for a tournament or two) and it keeps you concentrating well, then you might just have something!

      GL with it
      Tim
    • AquamanBT
      AquamanBT
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.07.2008 Posts: 338
      Your system is not totally insane, as suggested by previous posters Imho. However, where I disagree is in your brm. It's like taking a shot at a higher level (all of us have done that). The thing is I prefer to be on the safe side.

      I take a shot or two at a higher level with +50 bi. If I lose 2 I go down again, not as a punishment, but I take it as a "you need to practice more" message.
    • 8979687
      8979687
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.11.2008 Posts: 2,225
      Originally posted by AquamanBT
      Your system is not totally insane, as suggested by previous posters Imho. However, where I disagree is in your brm. It's like taking a shot at a higher level (all of us have done that). The thing is I prefer to be on the safe side.

      I take a shot or two at a higher level with +50 bi. If I lose 2 I go down again, not as a punishment, but I take it as a "you need to practice more" message.
      You should take it as a "you need a bigger sample" message.

      I agree with Tim64.

      You should have played enough games of the limit you are on and used to recently
      build up your BR to know that you are beating it easily enough to take a stab at the higher limits.

      You need enough BR to sustain a decent sample size of the next limit.

      If you move up to $5 with $50 for example, after losing 5 your half way broke.
      If you move up to $5 with $250.... you can stay at the limit even if it starts out bad,
      untill you reach the 50 buy in mark for the $2s or even the $1s if you so choose.

      The point is to move down when you have to and I do not think losing two in a row
      should be enough to push you off the next limit.
    • shija
      shija
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.02.2009 Posts: 17
      Ok, first of all, I would like to thank to all of you for your comments (positive and negative too).
      As I said before, this is little thing that came on my mind, and I said I'm still testing it. After few days I saw it have some good and some bad sides. Main idea was to prevent me from big loses on bad days. I admit I have no self discipline, and that's may biggest problem I have to work on it (but hey, admitting and recognizing your problem is first step for solving it.)

      @nafar84 - Yes, I'm playing one SnG at a time. I've tried few times to play more then one, but I prefer to be concentrated on every move, and you cannot do it if you are playing 3-4 games simultaneously. I know people who plays only sng's playing more then one at the same time, but I'm still not on that level.

      @8979687 - I'm not justifying playing on when you are a losing, and I'm definitely not "addicted gambler". So far I'm playing just for fun. Speaking about your friend in casino, you said: "He, just like you came up with this insane system that he was going to apply involving doubling his bets when he is losing etc etc." You didn't read my post. I'm not doubling it when I'm loosing. I'm going up when I'm WINNING, and down when I'm loosing. This is totally opposite to your friend system, but I said in first post this system gave me idea for that (and I think the system you are talking about is fastest way to bankrupt).

      @AquamanBT - I'm not taking down as punishment, but like you said "I need more practice". I played a lot $5, $10 and little less $20 sng's. There is not so much difference between them (I'm sure on higher levels is way bigger difference). When I asked one of my friends who plays on higher levels, how is the game. He told me one good thing. He said: "Every level up, there is one fish less".

      @everybody - For me, bankroll is most important thing. That's why I said I'm starting the session on bankroll level. If for example my bankroll allows me to start on $5, moving on higher level will not jeopardize my bankroll, because I'm moving on $10 ONLY after I win 2 games on $5. So, I put $10, I won $30, and then I'm putting $10 on game. If I loose on $10 I'm still $10 in plus, and I'm going down on $5 again. If I was in the money in between those two winnings. I'm even in bigger plus then.
      But I said few times. This is just testing, that's why I posted here to hear your feedback (and I'm really grateful for every post). I don't say I will keep playing with this system.
    • shija
      shija
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.02.2009 Posts: 17
      Originally posted by p0kerQT
      Also why risk playing higher stakes just coz ur on a winning streak, streaks dont always last very long so ur risking all the progress you have made.
      This what you wrote is so far biggest disadvantage of this system as I can see, and I'm aware of that. But on the other side if it keeps me from loosing a lot, then it could help me on my main goal: very small, but constant progress.
    • 8979687
      8979687
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.11.2008 Posts: 2,225
      I was refering to your lack of discipline and not being able to stop playing when you need to.

      Thats about as easy as it gets.

      I am not saying use this site as a bible and never stray from it, but they have laid out
      a seriously awsome BR management system that is guaranteed to see your BR survive
      and you will in the long run increase your profits faster by sticking to one limit and beating
      it then moving up to the next one.

      As was allready mentioned, losing the SNGs you play at the higher limit just eats all
      your profit you made before stepping into it. Where as if you have a winning streak or
      even if you are jst ITM 40% of your played games on one limit your profit is steady.

      And when you start to lose and feel tilt comming, just come hang out here for a while and
      read articles, or go watch a movie, or do something that is not playing poker.

      Your not addicted like selling your car to play, but If you want to make it, you need the discipline
      to stop when you have to.

      Playing a different system with your BR management will harm you before it helps.
      It is like avoiding the true issue which is control.

      I made my reply mostly based on this paragraph.


      And, my conclusion is simple: I must find a way to win more on good days, then I will loose on bad days. I was thinking how to do it since I don't have such discipline to stand up from computer when I'm doing bad (If I have it, then this text would be useless ;-) ), and then came on my mind to try to adopt some variation of progressive system from sports betting to poker game (I'm still testing this system, that's why all suggestions and critics are welcome).
      This is probably nothing new, but I never heard smb. is playing that way.
      Thats where my story of my friend at the casino comes in. That type of system will not work. It is the same type of thing your theroy is based on just slightly different.

      His predicament is he must stop playing all together where yours is you just need to
      stop playing when you lose your ability to play your best.

      Again no offence was meant to you.
    • themagpiespg
      themagpiespg
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.02.2009 Posts: 280
      Originally posted by 8979687
      I was refering to your lack of discipline and not being able to stop playing when you need to.

      Thats about as easy as it gets.

      I am not saying use this site as a bible and never stray from it, but they have laid out
      a seriously awsome BR management system that is guaranteed to see your BR survive
      and you will in the long run increase your profits faster by sticking to one limit and beating
      it then moving up to the next one.

      As was allready mentioned, losing the SNGs you play at the higher limit just eats all
      your profit you made before stepping into it. Where as if you have a winning streak or
      even if you are jst ITM 40% of your played games on one limit your profit is steady.

      And when you start to lose and feel tilt comming, just come hang out here for a while and
      read articles, or go watch a movie, or do something that is not playing poker.

      Your not addicted like selling your car to play, but If you want to make it, you need the discipline
      to stop when you have to.

      Playing a different system with your BR management will harm you before it helps.
      It is like avoiding the true issue which is control.

      I made my reply mostly based on this paragraph.


      And, my conclusion is simple: I must find a way to win more on good days, then I will loose on bad days. I was thinking how to do it since I don't have such discipline to stand up from computer when I'm doing bad (If I have it, then this text would be useless ;-) ), and then came on my mind to try to adopt some variation of progressive system from sports betting to poker game (I'm still testing this system, that's why all suggestions and critics are welcome).
      This is probably nothing new, but I never heard smb. is playing that way.
      Thats where my story of my friend at the casino comes in. That type of system will not work. It is the same type of thing your theroy is based on just slightly different.

      His predicament is he must stop playing all together where yours is you just need to
      stop playing when you lose your ability to play your best.

      Again no offence was meant to you.


      Good point, when I have a bad session I come to pokerstrat read a few posts and review the stratergy articles I've already read and read some new 1's before playing again. My BR thanks me for it as the down swing some turns the other way and I make a BR improves just by sticking to sss on nl10's and play 3-4 tables at a time, following good BRM so may advice to every 1 is read all the BRM articles and follow them in the long run you will make a profit and you br will go up.
    • dadude77
      dadude77
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.10.2008 Posts: 1,516
      Originally posted by viewer88


      There are no such things as "bad days" (provided you are not female)
      i lol'd!