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[NL5] Deciding OTR TPTK multiway

    • MatoStar
      MatoStar
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.07.2017 Posts: 186
      PF: is standard open
      OTF: I cbet smaller, because it is multiway
      OTT: Continue with betting I think I still have value bet against flush draws, worse Jx and sometimes TT-77
      OTR: I decided to go check/call, because he can turn on the bluff some busted flush draws which he would fold on my bet and I do not want
      to go for b/f or? Can I bet for thin value? I would prefer bet for thin value if otr would come club then I would go for small bet/fold, but I
      am not sure about it.

      MP2 is 27/14 (45) so he can be standard reg, but probably fish, so I did not adjust, because it is really small sample size




      Hero shows [Jh Ah] (a pair of Jacks)
      MP shows [Ac 5c] (high card)
  • 14 replies
    • KatalonacX
      KatalonacX
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2013 Posts: 99
      OTF I will bet 1/2pot or more, OTT is fine, OTR I will bet 1/2-fold to raise, this is microstakes do not mind what he call you.
    • DecMate
      DecMate
      Gold
      Joined: 25.01.2009 Posts: 1,480
      I agree with Kata. 1/2 pot flop&turn.
      I think you can lead the river small, 1/3 of the pot an fold to a raise. Pretty dry run-out.
    • lfcmichael
      lfcmichael
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.10.2016 Posts: 166
      Not related to this hand directly, but I found the colour coding confusing without a key to indicate the suits.

      Otherwise, I basically agree with the above. I think that betting small OTF risks letting at least one of them draw cheaply to a flush in a multiway pot.
    • CucumbaMan
      CucumbaMan
      Silver
      Joined: 13.10.2017 Posts: 243
      Yes, as others mentioned it, it would be better to bet a bit bigger on the flop so you can chase off some of villains' draws.
    • sdf256
      sdf256
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.07.2016 Posts: 148
      Since it's a multiway you should bet at least 1/2 OTF. That's what I was told by one of the coaches. I think you played the rest of the hand fine, but I would bet slightly less on the turn. I would prefer something about 13-14bb. I wouldn't bet 1/2 because I don't wanna give him a cheap call with a FD. OTR I would check/call if he betted a normall sizing. I don't like the idea of getting raised and bluffed out of the hand. But bet/folding is fine as well I would basicly mix it :D . But I would prefer to bet for a thin value IP. OOP when there is a high possibility for a free showdown, why risk?
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 10,864
      Originally posted by MatoStar
      PF: is standard open
      OTF: I cbet smaller, because it is multiway
      Hmmm....
      I think others have mentioned betting larger on flop.
      We don't want to give people pots odds to call.
      There are flush draws and straight draws on this board, and if you give them a cheap price to call, they will and they will sometimes hit.

      Your price should be high enough so that they number of times they call and miss wins you more than you lose when they call and hit.

      All the best,
      VS;
    • nitrol
      nitrol
      Silver
      Joined: 24.07.2010 Posts: 12,022
      Well, it is fine played, except for the bet sizes, as the others mentioned.
    • la55i
      la55i
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 8,009
      Basically on the flop when we are multiway we often can use a smaller sizing than we normally would. Betting large because we have to protect vs multiple opponents is a "misconception" in my opinion. When we do bet in multiway situations we are perceived to be strong which leads to us having better fold equity and that way we get better risk/reward ratio when we are betting. We also want to get at least some calls from weaker hands and not isolate ourselves against super strong ranges.
      But that is of course just a rough guide and does not necessarily work in every single spot. In some cases we might want to think about protection a bit more. And in some cases where we are perceived to be weaker (for example if we open from later position) we can also consider betting a bit bigger.
      In this hand hero bets 40% OTF which I think is quite ok. It could be 50%+ also. But I do not think we should go very large here just because we are multiway and there are some draws possible.
    • la55i
      la55i
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 8,009
      I also checked this with Snowie to see what it thinks would be good and "balanced" play. I'm not sure how good advice Snowie gives in 4way pots but it would actually check the flop most of the time. Or if we decide to bet, the sizing it recommends is 25% of the pot. The EV between these options is the same.
      I assume that is because our opening range is quite tight and doesn't have that many bluffs on this board, so a bigger bet size would be more difficult to balance.
    • LemOn36
      LemOn36
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 07.02.2009 Posts: 1,988
      Yeah I've been using 25% on 4way flops in these spots even before Snowie
      I'd play the hand exactly as you did, smaller flop size is okay too
    • LemOn36
      LemOn36
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 07.02.2009 Posts: 1,988
      Except the bet fold part on a club river, we're definitely check folding there
      Even this is close if he jams
    • lfcmichael
      lfcmichael
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.10.2016 Posts: 166
      Originally posted by la55i
      I also checked this with Snowie to see what it thinks would be good and "balanced" play. I'm not sure how good advice Snowie gives in 4way pots but it would actually check the flop most of the time. Or if we decide to bet, the sizing it recommends is 25% of the pot. The EV between these options is the same.
      I assume that is because our opening range is quite tight and doesn't have that many bluffs on this board, so a bigger bet size would be more difficult to balance.
      What would be the advantage here of checking the flop? I guess Snowie recommends that play in order to balance our checking range, but is that necessary at NL5? Would it not be better just to go for value?

      I can see the logic of betting quite small in terms of the fold equity, but won't a lot of NL5 villains call bigger bets with, say, the FD?
    • la55i
      la55i
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 8,009
      Yes, on this board our range is probably too value heavy so we can't bet big/bet very frequently and that is why Snowie likes to mix in some checks. But we don't have to worry about that at NL5.
      And yea probably they will call bigger bets with flush draws but then again we might make more money if villains do continue with some Ax hands, smaller pocket pairs, gutshots and so on also. The problem with bigger bet is that since we are 4way, opened from UTG and board is like this we might be perceived to be very strong and we get too little action.
    • MatoStar
      MatoStar
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.07.2017 Posts: 186
      Thanks guys for your opinions and hints, all of them looks reasonable, so next time I will bet on the flop around 25% and I will mix it with some checks and bigger sizings.