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QJ85ds 3b pot, 3way

    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 8,028
      Poker Stars, $1/$2 Pot Limit Omaha Cash, 6 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      SB: $200 (100 bb)
      BB: $334.25 (167.1 bb)
      UTG: $306.97 (153.5 bb)
      Hero (MP): $215.69 (107.8 bb)
      CO: $13.62 (6.8 bb)
      BTN: $251.70 (125.9 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is MP with :8c: :5c: :Qs: :Js:
      UTG folds, Hero raises to $7, CO folds, BTN calls $7, SB folds, BB raises to $29, Hero calls $22, BTN calls $22

      Flop: ($88) :7c: :8s: :9d: (3 players)
      BB checks, Hero checks, BTN bets $52.82, 2 folds

      BU is a good reg.
      41/41, 7% 3b. 3.5k hands. Ag 1.9. He is capable of bluffing but I would say is more value orientated.

      BB also reg - aggressive. 9.4% 3b, 150 hands.

      I'm trying to work out a stabbing range for BU in this spot, to see if we have enough eq and feq to x/shove on the flop.

      Thanks
  • 7 replies
    • SeagalSteven
      SeagalSteven
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 894
      Im not thrilled about this spot pteflop.

      Otf could you maybe stab yourself? Reasonable hand with nut gutter, 2 bdfds + pair. Would be nicer to hold T though.

      His bet is quite big on this coordinated board. I dont think you've much FE against any of his value hands he might be betting here.
    • benaars
      benaars
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2010 Posts: 783
      Fold pre, and fold vs sqz if you open this on MP

      On the flop I like betting myself, I'd even consider leading if we were first to act before the PFR. Vs the bet I think we have to call with a pair, double gutter and 2bdfs, there are enough turns we will be able to continue and the price is good.
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 8,028
      Hand is 19th percentile. Thought MP should be 20-25%? Do you fold this combo vs all lineups? Can you explain why we need to fold pre (other than general rule about not getting in 'difficult' spots?

      I agree about post. I think x/f is too nitty. Let's say we decide to lead - do we go with our hand vs BU shove?

      Thanks, both.
    • benaars
      benaars
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2010 Posts: 783
      With two high suits it can be opened at some frequency, but this combo together with a bunch of other similar hands are very low valued mainly due to the fact of how gappy and disconnected this hand is. Unfortunately I cant give you more precise answer to why this hand is folded but maybe you can play around with PPT and see how such combos perform in multiway scenarios (which is very likely when we open MP), how often are we flopping something reasonable like a good wrap, two pair or combo draws and so on, maybe the answer lies there. Also vs reasonable opposition a lot of the flatting range vs EP/MP will(should) include hands that dominate your combo in connectivity (apart from double-suited I guess) that will flop overall higher and better draws or same draws with SDV.

      If you lead I dont think you get shoved on very often given that JT might not be raising as there is not much to protect against on a rainbow board, but in case that happens I'd fold. PJ simulations are pretty good helper with this if you can come up with reasonable semibluff ranges for villain.
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 8,028
      Ty!
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 11,174
      Preflop is really close. With PPT rankings it is indeed top19%. But if we use PokerJuice ranges, it's not in RFI20 (it is though in RFI25). And with solver it's probably sometimes open, sometimes fold. But I would assume it's more often a fold.

      When something is that close, in a vacuum it's probably quite breakeven. Not such a mistake to open, nor fold.

      Reason is just the strength of the hand. You block the flush that gives you the most value (Js) and other suit is 8high. And the hand is not that connected as you need either T9 or 67 to have a straight draw (or that 987). And even then you have decent amount of non-nut outs.
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 8,028
      Thanks for the explanation - most helpful :)