call flop/raise turn in multi-way pots

    • adr0001
      adr0001
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.03.2008 Posts: 271
      Can call flop/raise turn be good in multi-way pots, not just in heads-up situations? I read in Small Stakes Holdem-Hand Quizzes some examples were the authors prefer this play.

      For instance, hand 8,Turn play,page 291.
      You have Ah Qh on the button. 4 players limp and you raise. The SB folds, the BB calls and the limpers call(12.5 small bets). The flop is Qs Ts 7h.
      The BB bets, the first limper calls, and the second one raises. The next player cold-calls and the final limper folds. You call. The BB and the 1st limper call(11 big bets). The turn is 3c. It is checked to the flop raiser who bets. The next player calls(13 big bets). What should you do?
      Answer: Raise. The reason you just called the flop raise was to get a raise in on fourth street if a blank fell. The 3c is a great card for you; follow through with your plan.

      Another example-hand 14, flop play, page 279
      You have Ah Ad in middle position. 1 limper, you raise, 2 cold-call,SB folds and BB reraises. The limpers call, you cap, everyone calls(20.5 small bets). The flop: Qh 9h 9s. BB bets and limper raises (23.5 small bets). What should you do?
      Answer: call with the intention of raising the turn

      hand 2, flop play, page266
      You have 9h 9s on the button. 4 limp, you raise, BB and limpers call(12.5SB)
      The flop: 9c 7c 3s. BB bets, limper raises, 2 of the 3 remaining limpers call. What should you do?
      Answer: Reraise. But, an exception occurs when you are quite sure a reraise on the flop will result in everyone just calling and then checking to you, while a call on the flop on your part is almost certain to result in another bet and calls on the turn. Only then is it worth waiting for the turn to raise.

      last example, hand 19, flop play, page 283
      You have As Kd on the button. 3 limp, you raise, both blinds and all the limpers call(12SB). Flop: Ks 9s 6c Everyone checks, you bet. SB check-raises, 3 people cold-call(21 SB). What should you do?
      Answer: Reraise. But, if you knew the SB would bet the turn if you just called, then you would prefer waiting until then to raise. The SB c-raised, probably hoping that your other opponents would fold. Normally, you could count on the flop c-raiser to bet the turn. Here you cannot; the unwanted callers might scare him into checking.

      What do you think about call flop/raise turn in multi-way pots?
  • 5 replies
    • ciRith
      ciRith
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      Hi adr0001,

      I thought about this delay theory a while ago and forgot my arguments about it. (They were against it.)

      Well I try doing it again.

      For one these days you nearly never come into situation like the hands you posted. The game got tighter and more aggressive so you see less players raise more.
      Then you have to fear to not get a bet in front of you on the turn. (just saying. "If you KNOW that they bet the turn...." Ehm where should we ever know that from? Sure sometimes we play against opponents who bet nearly always but that again not very often the case.)
      Often they backup if there are so many callers so if they bet they even have you beat. If they check you lost money and a chance to protect your hand.

      The main theory is to wait for a good turncard which sounds correct but I fear that you just miss value as the games changed. Also you might give someone the correct odds to drawout on you which may even call your protection raise/3-bet.
    • adr0001
      adr0001
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.03.2008 Posts: 271
      Hi ciRith

      Originally posted by ciRith
      For one these days you nearly never come into situation like the hands you posted. The game got tighter and more aggressive so you see less players raise more.
      Doesn't this mean that there are bigger chances that someone will bet the turn if I just call the flop? So I can make them call 2 big bets instead of one if I play call flop/raise turn.


      Originally posted by ciRith
      The main theory is to wait for a good turncard which sounds correct but I fear that you just miss value as the games changed. Also you might give someone the correct odds to drawout on you which may even call your protection raise/3-bet.
      I don't understand. If the games are more aggressive that means that I can be fairly sure there will be another bet on the turn. If I wait for the turn to raise I will make my opponents to pay more since the bet size has doubled.
      In the examples from that book the pot is so big that a raise on the pot will still give the others the correct odds to draw. In the example with AA in middle position the authors say that "putting in a third bet is unlikely to protect your hand because the only hands that will fold are hands that you have badly beaten." But, even if they have odds to call, I don't think is so bad a reraise because I make the draw hands to pay more to see the turn while I have the best hand. If I wait for the turn to raise maybe I will not have anymore the best hand, so instead of reraising the flop with the best hand I'm now raising the turn with second best hand. This is what I don't like about call flop/raise turn in multi-way pots.

      Let's say that I have Aces on the button with 2 limpers in front. I raise. The limpers call.
      The flop has a flush and a str8 draw possible. Limper 1 donk bets and limper 2 calls. There are now 9.5 small bets in the pot. If I raise, the first limper will have 11.5:1 odds to call. If limper 1 just calls, limper 2 will have 12.5:1 odds to call with a flush or a str8 draw. Even if limper 1 3bets, limper 2 will have 6.75:1 odds to call. And even if I wait for the turn(let's suppose limper1 bets again the turn and limper 2 calls again) they will still have good odds to call with their draws. It's difficult to protect my hand in this situation. But, even if I can't protect my hand, I can raise for value.
      If the turn completes their draws(and I just called the flop) it should have been better to raise the flop. But if the turn doesn't complete their draws I will win more bets from them if the action is bet/call/raise/call/call instead of check/check/bet/call/call.
      In this example I usually raise the flop even if I am sure that limper 1 will bet again the turn if I just call. Do I make a mistake?
    • OlivierLu
      OlivierLu
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2007 Posts: 5,524
      @ciRith: the "microstakes" just go down in limits. Perhaps it used to be at 2/4 few years ago (I was not a poker player yet), but know, it is more like 0.05/0.1

      @adr0001: the call flop / raise turn you showed us is a move to maximize protection. On the flop, a player with a good draw will always cap for value. You just can protect, and that make the pot bigger (draws will find some very easy call, even if you raise).
      By calling flop / raising turn, you maximize protection: 1st, the pot tend to be smaller, 2nd the turn raise size is twice the value as a flop raise.
    • ciRith
      ciRith
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      With tighter and more aggressive I mean that there are nearly no situations as described in the book. There are less players in and you get better chances to protect as well as it's bet, call, raise, 3-bet instead of bet, call, call, raise, coldcall, etc..

      The you can't protect is the thing that makes sense. I knew an argument against it abut I simply can't remember it anymore. :/
      Protecting doesn't mean that a hand can't call anymore. It means that they call even if they get the wrong odds. And that will happen more often if you force them to pay 2 bets. With 11,5:1 they might call with two overcards where they have not enough outs. With 22:1 I think they have. So you didn't forced them into making mistakes.

      With more aggressive I don't mean that they automatically bet the turn into 4 players again. This is not often the case so you lose value.

      You also lose value if you just call and a scarecard comes which makes you call but in real it didn't help them at all. If you raised the flop and bet the turn iun this case ayou would have gained more.



      So there are possibilities in which this play makes sense but I think you can play successful without it (and it might not even nessecary on the higher limits as this won't happen very often if at all.)
    • adr0001
      adr0001
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.03.2008 Posts: 271
      Thanks for the answers.
      I don't like this play either. Even if I know for sure that someone will bet the turn I prefer to play my hands fast. If I raise the flop I will have less tougher decisions.
      Also I've put this question on other forums and everyone told me that raising the flop instead of waiting for the turn is better. So now I'm 100% sure the correct play is playing your hands fast.