New SSS Basic Charts

    • williamtywong
      williamtywong
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.01.2009 Posts: 123
      I noticed that the the SSS charts posted in Basic were updated. I read through them, and they now teach us to push all in directly some hands. Especially on raises behind, the chart with the original raise:remaining was taken out. Instead, we are taught to push directly with TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AK.

      I have two questions:

      1) Is this an improved version of the original strategy, or is it just meant to simplify for beginners. I've been used to playing with the original raise:remaining chart, so, should I continue with that, or play according to this new chart?

      2) What happens if there are two raises behind me, do I fold all except AA & KK, or what is the rule there?

      3) Similar to 1, the original strategy called for a raise of 3X the original raise + 1X for each caller when dealing with a raise in front. Now, it teaches to push all-in directly. Again my question is, is this an improvement of the SSS, or just a simplification. Is it more +EV to play with the new style or the old style. The reason why I'm asking this is that right now i'm playing reraises as according to the SSS reraise ranges charts from gold. So, when I see that I have +ev to reraise, should I push all in directly then, or just play 3X original raise?

      Thanks,

      Will
  • 6 replies
    • Meiffert
      Meiffert
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.10.2008 Posts: 151
      It's not a big difference in the strategy, just the same thing written with different words (I have to check it myself, but it seems like it's easier to follow now - my friends who are just starting to learn the SSS will be happy about it I guess :-)).
      1. You always pushed after being reraised with JJ+ and AK, the only difference is that now TT was moved to this "never fold preflop when you already invested money" group.

      2. No, you push anyway. When you already raised, you have good enough odds to push (of course you are more often behind against 2 villains but also you can win more so it kinda evens itself out).

      3. If there is raise in front of you, and you raise to 3 times his raise, it's usually at least 9 bb (if he raised to 3 bb) or even more. This is already nearly half of your stack when you play with 20 bb and the strategy always said to go all-in when the bet or raise would be half of your stack or more.
      If you only raised 9 bb and get called, you would go all-in on the flop anyway because you would either be in a heads-up pot (and "conti-bet 2/3 pot and go all-in if it is more then 1/2 of your remaing stack") or you have at least 2 callers and then you have less then half a potsize left (and "if you have less then half a potsize left, you always push all-in). You are so-called commited to the pot when you raise to 9 bb, so it's better to push directly.
      So again (similar to your question 1), it's not really a change of the strategy, it's the same thing written in other words. You go one way or another (old or new strategy), you end up with the same result of pushing all-in probably.

      The only exception might be if you face a min-rase to 2 bb. Then you might decide not to push but consider this min-raise as 2 limpers and just raise to 4 bb + 1 per limper + 2 per this min-raiser instead of a push. I don't think that pushing directly is a mistake though.
    • barrelhead
      barrelhead
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.01.2009 Posts: 95
      Originally posted by Meiffert
      1. You always pushed after being reraised with JJ+ and AK, the only difference is that now TT was moved to this "never fold preflop when you already invested money" group.
      Well, it also tells you to fold KQ, AJ, AQ, 77, 88, 99 when being re-raised regardless of your original stack:raise ratio.

      It would be nice if the author of that article told us what was the reason behind these changes. Was it really only to simplify things?
    • Meiffert
      Meiffert
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.10.2008 Posts: 151
      Yeah, well, acually it won't be such a big difference either.
      If you only made standard raise of 4 bb, you had the stack/raise ratio around 1/4 which told you to fold other hands anyways.
      If you were reraising to 9 bb or something, your odds would have been too good to fold, so you pushed (your stack/raise ration is about 1/1.5 this time, so you had a call/push).
      This new strategy tells you to push instead of a reraise, so you never get into this spot and usually when you get reraised, your original raises was small enough to give you room to fold 88 or AJ.
      (You get the same result most of the time as with the old strategy. There might be some difference when you have 99 or AQ and you raise like 5-6 bb with ~18 bb stack. Now you fold, the old strategy sugested call/push, but these borderline decisions can be made both ways and at least most of the times the result of both strategies is the same.)

      And I really like the pushing more than a reraise which is commiting you anyway as it gives you more fold equity and saves you from making mistakes on the flop.
    • williamtywong
      williamtywong
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.01.2009 Posts: 123
      Maybe when playing at a basic level, these new rules do help to avoid decisions on the flop. However, once you want to improve winrate a little more, I think it becomes necessary to play on the flop, even with SSS. So, I think there are certainly situations where you dont' want to cut out the post-flop play, especially once stats are being used.
    • adr0001
      adr0001
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.03.2008 Posts: 271
      Originally posted by barrelhead
      It would be nice if the author of that article told us what was the reason behind these changes. Was it really only to simplify things?
      I think they changed the rules to reduce the variance. The begginers will not lose so quicky their starting capital. :D
      I wish these rules were available a year ago. Maybe I wouldn't have lost my starting capital on Mansion(I have to admit that $25 was because of tilt after a 14BI downswing).
    • williamtywong
      williamtywong
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.01.2009 Posts: 123
      I think the new rules might actually increase the variance, as they appear to be a simplification. Appears that I am getting into more coinflips preflop than before, while reducing post-flop play, so that definitely increases variance.