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[NL10] A9s ~ Flopped flush, river call

    • DecMate
      DecMate
      Gold
      Joined: 25.01.2009 Posts: 1,409
      PokerStars - $0.10 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

      BTN: $10.15 (VPIP: 21.38, PFR: 18.75, 3Bet Preflop: 6.38, Hands: 153)
      SB: $8.43
      Hero (BB): $13.19
      UTG: $20.47 (VPIP: 30.35, PFR: 22.89, 3Bet Preflop: 8.54, Hands: 209)
      MP: $5.78 (VPIP: 26.19, PFR: 19.05, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 43)
      CO: $11.65 (VPIP: 17.44, PFR: 15.12, 3Bet Preflop: 10.71, Hands: 86)

      SB posts SB $0.05, Hero posts BB $0.10

      Pre Flop: (pot: $0.15) Hero has A:heart: 9:heart:

      fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to $0.25, fold, Hero calls $0.15

      Flop: ($0.55, 2 players) 4:heart: Q:heart: 3:heart:
      Hero checks, BTN bets $0.30, Hero raises to $0.90, BTN calls $0.60

      Turn: ($2.35, 2 players) T:diamond:
      Hero bets $2.00, BTN calls $2.00

      River: ($6.35, 2 players) T:spade:
      Hero checks, BTN bets $3.20, Hero calls $3.20

      BTN shows Q:spade: T:heart: (Full House, Tens full of Queens)
      (Pre 41%, Flop 3%, Turn 9%)
      Hero mucks A:heart: 9:heart: (Flush, Ace High)
      (Pre 59%, Flop 97%, Turn 91%)
      BTN wins $12.18


      Was going to fold. But thought it'd be too nitty.
      does he have anything other then a full house here?..:f_confused:
  • 12 replies
    • RubbyDubby
      RubbyDubby
      Silver
      Joined: 15.02.2018 Posts: 193
      No.

      But so hard to get away from that hand. 99% of the population here, including me, would probably call there.
    • CucumbaMan
      CucumbaMan
      Silver
      Joined: 13.10.2017 Posts: 200
      I don't know, it's pretty tough to put him on his exact hand. I mean he calls a re-raise on a flushy board, so he either has a small flush, or a big flush draw with a K, or a flopped set.
      If villain has just a flopped set, is he calling an almost pot size bet on the turn? I'm not sure about that. Or if he has just a flush draw there are not many chances that the Ten helped him in any way.
      So it's pretty hard for me to put him on a full house here.
    • clovenhoofsdoom
      clovenhoofsdoom
      Silver
      Joined: 04.03.2016 Posts: 155
      Youre right, his river-range is looking strongly nutheavy. But you do not know if this is some mental game: he knows, that you think.... and so on. Since he bet the river, he still has bluffs in his range. You just can't fold the nutflush here if you do not have some special read on Villain. What I do not understand is why Villain didn't shove, but then again, you can say thank you for being a bit cheap and make a note.
    • DecMate
      DecMate
      Gold
      Joined: 25.01.2009 Posts: 1,409
      Originally posted by CucumbaMan
      I don't know, it's pretty tough to put him on his exact hand. I mean he calls a re-raise on a flushy board, so he either has a small flush, or a big flush draw with a K, or a flopped set.
      If villain has just a flopped set, is he calling an almost pot size bet on the turn? I'm not sure about that. Or if he has just a flush draw there are not many chances that the Ten helped him in any way.
      So it's pretty hard for me to put him on a full house here.
      I agree about his flop-calling range. But in reality on a river like this, he's never betting a flush. Qx is checking back. And he obviously has something as he called a F/R+ T barrel. I just don't see any regs even having a bluffing range here on the river.

      Originally posted by clovenhoofsdoom
      But you do not know if this is some mental game: he knows, that you think.... and so on.
      As I said, I doubt there's a mental game after he calls the flop raise and turn bet. Obviously folding here Is extremely exploitable, but wouldn't we be actually exploiting a nutted range by folding here?..
    • RubbyDubby
      RubbyDubby
      Silver
      Joined: 15.02.2018 Posts: 193
      I don't think it's extremely exploitable to fold there. Villain can not see your hand so he does not know what you folded.

      These hands are rare also. It will not influence your stats in such a way it shows.
    • pokerboy198229
      pokerboy198229
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.08.2011 Posts: 1,575
      why isnt standaard to bet fold? Thas what i would do most od the time.
    • Alleen86
      Alleen86
      Silver
      Joined: 27.05.2010 Posts: 5,315
      I think we can make it bigger OTF, at least 3,5x. And I would bet/fold River with like 1/2 size. He could still have some top pairs, KK and worse flushes which would check back if we check, but could call if we bet. Also, some players would 3bet sets OTF (also worse flushes, though). When we check, I don't see enough worse hands betting. When his calling range is wider than betting range, and we have a thin value, it's better to bet/fold then check/call.
    • DecMate
      DecMate
      Gold
      Joined: 25.01.2009 Posts: 1,409
      Originally posted by Alleen86
      I think we can make it bigger OTF, at least 3,5x. And I would bet/fold River with like 1/2 size. He could still have some top pairs, KK and worse flushes which would check back if we check, but could call if we bet. Also, some players would 3bet sets OTF (also worse flushes, though). When we check, I don't see enough worse hands betting. When his calling range is wider than betting range, and we have a thin value, it's better to bet/fold then check/call.
      :f_love:
    • clovenhoofsdoom
      clovenhoofsdoom
      Silver
      Joined: 04.03.2016 Posts: 155
      Originally posted by DecMate
      As I said, I doubt there's a mental game after he calls the flop raise and turn bet. Obviously folding here Is extremely exploitable, but wouldn't we be actually exploiting a nutted range by folding here?..
      Point taken!
    • ben002
      ben002
      Silver
      Joined: 03.03.2018 Posts: 59
      Hi,

      what is the idea behind the raise OTF? Intuitively I would just have called as his only hands with considerable equity are sets. I fear that the raise could fold out a lot of hands of which one could otherwise get at least one more street of value.
      And what do you guys think of villain's play in this hand? Do you think his call OTF was ok, given that he had TP and a draw to a mediocre flush? I think I would have folded if I was him. Are there good arguments for him to continue?
    • clovenhoofsdoom
      clovenhoofsdoom
      Silver
      Joined: 04.03.2016 Posts: 155
      Interesting question, ben002!

      I think his flop call can be fine but it depends on odds and outs, which I did not calculate. You probably would raise flushs with suited connectors as well, so a T high flush can be the best hand plus you have the small chance for runner runner fullhouse as it happened to this villain, where you can play for the biggest pots.

      Ok here is the calculation of odds:

      for the call on the flop you just need 25% equity. Now it gets a bit workheavy, so I leave it up to you: what would you think is Villains range here? Put it into equilab and see if we get 25% :)
    • DecMate
      DecMate
      Gold
      Joined: 25.01.2009 Posts: 1,409
      Originally posted by ben002
      Hi,
      what is the idea behind the raise OTF? Intuitively I would just have called as his only hands with considerable equity are sets. I fear that the raise could fold out a lot of hands of which one could otherwise get at least one more street of value.
      And what do you guys think of villain's play in this hand? Do you think his call OTF was ok, given that he had TP and a draw to a mediocre flush? I think I would have folded if I was him. Are there good arguments for him to continue?
      The idea behind the raise on the flop is pretty simple.. we have the nuts, we want money. Keep it simple.
      "one more street of value" ~ don't think this is a great ideology to have here. I wana get stacks in ASAP, charge his sets / 2P hands and get bonk from his flushes.
      I think he played it awful and should of folded the flop. Well his river bet is alright I guess. but Q10o vs an unknowns flop raise,.. always folding.