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[NL50] SH Zoom AKo, TPTK in 3bet Pot

    • Alleen86
      Alleen86
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2010 Posts: 5,334
      Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      SB: $72.28 (144.6 bb)
      Hero (BB): $66.05 (132.1 bb)
      UTG: $131.71 (263.4 bb)
      MP: $57.60 (115.2 bb)
      CO: $97.62 (195.2 bb)
      BTN: $67.07 (134.1 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BB with :Ad: :Ks:
      UTG folds, MP calls $0.50, 2 folds, SB raises to $2, Hero raises to $5.75, MP calls $5.25, SB folds

      Flop: ($13.50) :Qh: :Kd: :3h: (2 players)
      Hero bets $7, MP calls $7

      Turn: ($27.50) :7h: (2 players)
      Hero bets $13.06, MP calls $13.06

      River: ($53.62) :Tc: (2 players)
      Hero checks, MP bets $31.79 and is all-in, Hero folds


      Preflop: MP is most likelly a recreational when open limping. Has stats of 21/4 in 24 hands. SB is unknown with stats of 29/13 in 25 hands. Decided to 3bet for value.

      Flop: Cbetting for value again. He could have alot of worse top pairs, Qx, random pocket pairs, flushdraws, straightraws, gutshots and A-highs calling.

      Turn: Not the best card, ofcourse, but recreational could still have worse hands calling, so cbetting again for value.

      River: Not the best card because some of his one pair hands improved and AJ gutshot came there. Not sure should I value bet again because I doubt he is capable of calling another bet with a hand like KJ or AQ. I think the best move is to check/fold and win a showdown some amount of the time when he checks back. I don't think he will value bet worse or turn something like Qx or 99 into a bluff. I also don't expect unknown to bluff with AhX with a missed flushdraw.
  • 13 replies
    • DecMate
      DecMate
      Gold
      Joined: 25.01.2009 Posts: 1,535
      I'd play it the same mate, I think your sizing is fine and betting the river is way too thin.
      As you said, I doubt the average unknown would be able to turn his hand into a bluff here. Plus he looks like a recreational limping in pre so I'm not feeling bad about folding.
      Not much more you could do here.
    • nitrol
      nitrol
      Silver
      Joined: 24.07.2010 Posts: 12,073
      On river another draw completes and I think we should not be betting.
    • Zotyibacsi97
      Zotyibacsi97
      Platinum
      Joined: 20.05.2015 Posts: 217
      I'd play it the same mate, I think your sizing is fine and betting the river is way too thin.
      As you said, I doubt the average unknown would be able to turn his hand into a bluff here. Plus he looks like a recreational limping in pre so I'm not feeling bad about folding.
      Not much more you could do here.
      Well playd i agree.

      Why so small 3bet pre? I pref. ~$6.5
    • Alleen86
      Alleen86
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2010 Posts: 5,334
      Originally posted by Zotyibacsi97
      Why so small 3bet pre? I pref. ~$6.5
      Yeah, I guess it could be bigger, but I thought that the raise size is allready big (although too small from what it should have been vs 1 limper when OOP, except he is making the smaller size because of an incredibly good and aggressive reg behind :coolface: ) and I had position on iso-raiser, so decided to 3bet a bit smaller.

      When you mentioned that, I noticed that some competent regs at 100NL and above started to 3bet with very big sizings, like 3,5 IP vs 3bb open and 4x OOP vs 3bb open, but not sure what's the theory behind i.e. is it profitable and why? I guess the population read is that the fold equity is relatively higher than vs smaller sizes so average profit from 3betting is higher.
    • Zotyibacsi97
      Zotyibacsi97
      Platinum
      Joined: 20.05.2015 Posts: 217
      is it profitable and why?
      Because you are oop and you give to good pot ods to defend vs your 3bet wild and also profitable.
    • LemOn36
      LemOn36
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 07.02.2009 Posts: 2,068
      I 3bet 6x 200bb deep oop :)
    • Zotyibacsi97
      Zotyibacsi97
      Platinum
      Joined: 20.05.2015 Posts: 217
      Originally posted by LemOn36
      I 3bet 6x 200bb deep oop :)
      I 3b 3x ip to 3.5x oop but there is a limper in the pot to, but 6x can be good to (it's deepends on ranges)
    • Alleen86
      Alleen86
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2010 Posts: 5,334
      Originally posted by LemOn36
      I 3bet 6x 200bb deep oop :)
      Got that! But what's the reason of 3betting 3,5x vs 3bb open raise IP 100bb deep (and 4x OOP) as default?
      Should solid regs adopt those fancy strategies at NL50 and why (not)? :f_cool:
    • Zotyibacsi97
      Zotyibacsi97
      Platinum
      Joined: 20.05.2015 Posts: 217
      Originally posted by Alleen86
      Originally posted by LemOn36
      I 3bet 6x 200bb deep oop :)
      Got that! But what's the reason of 3betting 3,5x vs 3bb open raise IP 100bb deep (and 4x OOP) as default?
      Should solid regs adopt those fancy strategies at NL50 and why (not)? :f_cool:
      yes, but at higher limits become more -ev if you don't adopt. I recommend go deep into pio.
      The reason is what i say before:
      Because you are oop and you give to good pot ods to defend vs your 3bet wild and also profitable.
      But care, you need to change your ranges a bit (you can't start 3beting 4-5-6x with a 3x 3beting range)
    • Alleen86
      Alleen86
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2010 Posts: 5,334
      Originally posted by Zotyibacsi97
      Originally posted by Alleen86
      Originally posted by LemOn36
      I 3bet 6x 200bb deep oop :)
      Got that! But what's the reason of 3betting 3,5x vs 3bb open raise IP 100bb deep (and 4x OOP) as default?
      Should solid regs adopt those fancy strategies at NL50 and why (not)? :f_cool:
      yes, but at higher limits become more -ev if you don't adopt. I recommend go deep into pio.
      The reason is what i say before:
      Because you are oop and you give to good pot ods to defend vs your 3bet wild and also profitable.
      But care, you need to change your ranges a bit (you can't start 3beting 4-5-6x with a 3x 3beting range)
      So, if I understand well, people at higher limits defend more and more solid vs 3bets, thus make your life tougher when you 3bet, especially OOP, so our adaptation is to 3bet tighter ranges, but with bigger sizings.

      As ranges are concerned, I supose that 3bet ranges should be more and more linear because people are calling more vs 3bets then at lower limits. We should go polar only if villain folds too much vs 3bets (we then add some speculative hands to our 3bet ranges as bluffs and probably reducing a 3bet size in those cases makes sense) and if villain 4bets alot, because we are losing value when we 3bet hands that are ahead of villain's open range, but have to fold vs 4bets. Does this make any sense?
    • la55i
      la55i
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 8,237
      I just woke up. But at the moment I'm not sure if it makes sense to start 3betting significantly tighter range when villains defend more. Then we just let villain open a wider range profitably. And of course our range must be balanced so he can't start exploiting us by just folding a lot vs 3bets? And to balance a bigger 3bet sizing our 3betting range should be more bluff heavy. But I do agree that it is wise to start 3betting more linear when villains start calling a lot.

      So adding more bluffs and 3betting smaller is the opposite of what I think we should do. Have to think about that more after a cup of coffee :f_biggrin:
    • Alleen86
      Alleen86
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2010 Posts: 5,334
      Originally posted by la55i
      I just woke up. But at the moment I'm not sure if it makes sense to start 3betting significantly tighter range when villains defend more. Then we just let villain open a wider range profitably. And of course our range must be balanced so he can't start exploiting us by just folding a lot vs 3bets? And to balance a bigger 3bet sizing our 3betting range should be more bluff heavy. But I do agree that it is wise to start 3betting more linear when villains start calling a lot.

      So adding more bluffs and 3betting smaller is the opposite of what I think we should do. Have to think about that more after a cup of coffee :f_biggrin:
      Since we didn't hear you yet, supose it was not just a coffee! :f_drink:
    • la55i
      la55i
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 8,237
      :f_biggrin: :f_biggrin:

      Yea I indeed started celebrating 1st of may already and now I have a hangover. Kinda was relying on that LemOn will wake up here and tell what he thinks. :pcuser:

      I do believe that bigger bet sizes should have more bluffs in the range to balance properly but that might not work 100% like that in the real world.