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[NL5] TPGK on wet board as PFR

    • ben002
      ben002
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.03.2018 Posts: 59
      Hi, :f_drink:

      here comes another hand. This time quite a standard situation I guess which I might have played really badly.

      $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players

      BB: $8.55 (VPIP: 37.74, PFR: 22.75, 3Bet Preflop: 5.71, Hands: 261)
      UTG: $5.00
      MP: $3.96
      CO: $11.51
      Hero (BTN): $6.07
      SB: $5.02

      SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

      Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has J:heart: Q:club:

      fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.12, fold, BB calls $0.07

      Flop: ($0.26, 2 players) Q:heart: 7:diamond: 8:diamond:
      BB checks, Hero checks

      Turn: ($0.26, 2 players) 4:club:
      BB bets $0.20, Hero calls $0.20

      River: ($0.66, 2 players) 6:diamond:
      BB bets $0.50, Hero calls $0.50

      OTF:
      When playing I thought, that this might be a nice hand to check/call as it is neither good nor bad enough for a c-bet. In retrospect I think a value bet would have been the right choice. I am most likely ahead here and my hand should be good enough for at least one street of value. There also should be some equity on the board for villain's range, which I shouldn't let him realize for free.

      As played I think I should have folded OTR. A lot of straights and flushes did complete here so a lot of his turn bluffing hands probably became value hands now which beat me. I really don't see a lot of suitable bluffs in his range left. Also bluffing seems to be not a good idea for villain, given that also some of my draws should have completed OTR. When it comes to SDV hands weaker then my top pair, I think he wouldn't have bet two streets with them. So there is not a lot left which I beat here.

      Do you agree that c-betting OTF and folding OTR would have been the right play?
  • 10 replies
    • RubbyDubby
      RubbyDubby
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2018 Posts: 193
      Hi ben002

      Its a terrible hand to check on the flop! You're in position and have TP with a reasonable kicker.
      It is a mandatory c bet there. Your opponent has to pay to draw. You have to deny him his equity.
      Then call turn (when he bets) or bet turn when he checks..
      Fold river (when he bets) or check back when he checks
    • DecMate
      DecMate
      Gold
      Joined: 25.01.2009 Posts: 1,535
      I do agree.
      Betting on the flop always here , too many draws to get value from.
      Bet twice check back river unless you improve is most likely goin to be the optimal line here.
      As played a fold is viable.
    • karmie
      karmie
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.04.2018 Posts: 2
      As played, folding river 100%. 40vpip player has too many straights/flushes here, any 5, 9T, random 2pairs - without reads folding here is definitely the play IMO and if you multitable and get into the habit of calling here it's a super leak. Definitely betting flop on larger side, turn can be smaller and mostly checking back river, 2 streets seems reasonable -- folding to any resistance though readless. You beat high vpip players at micros by value betting them to death with range advantage and knowing when to fold (generally the minraise on the turn is nutted.)

      I think checking back flop is totally fine vs more reasonable players who may be more inclined to look you up with any pair/A high on turn or river, against some player types even checking back turn to get a single bet on the river vs a stubborn pocket pair is fine.. Against this dude.. bet all day IMO. :f_drink:
    • RubbyDubby
      RubbyDubby
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2018 Posts: 193
      off topic: karmie here is I think a perfect example of somebody who just joined pokerstrategy.com with more than the 3 weeks of poker miles in his pocket than his join date suggests :D

      (or a genius)
    • MrQNo
      MrQNo
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.09.2006 Posts: 2,065
      Hm. This is definitely no spot to check the flop. There are flush and straight draws, your opponent might have a lot of outs. While there are very few combos that beat you otf, there are a lot of hands that might overtake you. You WILL them fold or pay the price. Try that game (check) with a stronger hand on a drier board.

      As played: you have to fold the river. The flush and some straights arrive, perhaps some 2pairs (and the set obv.).
    • la55i
      la55i
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 8,216
      Yea I would definitely bet the flop. The line DecMate suggested sounds good imo. Bet twice and maybe plan to check behind OTR. However villain looks quite loose and as he didn't 3bet pre we might be able to take 3 streets of value. The sample size is a bit low for WTSD but if that is high and river card would seem safe I would consider betting.

      As played I do think that too many hands got there and folding seems ok.
    • ToddBrunson
      ToddBrunson
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.05.2010 Posts: 398
      And if villain called cbet the flop, turn always cbet with top pair and medium kicker? Lot of Qx combos beat. KQ or slow played AQ and Q8s. So turn cbet again or check/call?
    • la55i
      la55i
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 8,216
      There are lots of weaker hands and draws that can call again. And you don't want to give free cards here. This is BTN vs BB and you opened to 2.5x so his range should be wide. And when you bet the turn, you can quite often check behind OTR if you feel like it.

      I would say your top pair on these positions in single raised pot is worth 2 streets. So by checking the turn you would miss that value and let villain realize his equity for free. And also OTR villain can just bomb it and you don't know whether it is because he has a strong hand or is he just bluffing you because you checked the turn.
    • RubbyDubby
      RubbyDubby
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2018 Posts: 193
      Originally posted by la55i
      The line DecMate suggested sounds good imo.
      What exactly is the difference between my line then DecMate's line???? :D
    • la55i
      la55i
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 8,216
      Heh, looks quite similar to me :f_biggrin: I probably misread something the first time :)