# roi and rake

• Gold
Joined: 29.03.2006
Hi,

how do I calculate if a limit is profitable or not? And how do I know how much roi I have to play to beat it. For example, stars 9man turbos 1,50\$ its 18c rake. According to that it's 8,33% rake. Do I have to play a roi like 8,33% to be break even? Because if you look at the higher stakes the rake percentage increases. For a 3,50\$ sng its 8,9% and 11,1% for 7\$ sng's. Is this estimation this simple? If I play at the 1,50\$ sng's a roi of 20%. Can I calculate my estimated roi like this? 20-8,33=11,77%. So if I multiplicate 11,77% with the sngs I might play let's say 1000. My winnings should be like (1,50/11,77) *1000= 128,2\$. Is that correct?

Greets

maniac
• 15 replies
• Moderator
Moderator
Joined: 12.11.2008
It’s time for a calculation check. 18/150*100% is 12% rake. Not sure you have calculated it, but I think that is most likely the wrong method.

If you calculate the ROI every ROI that’s higher than 0% is profitable, because you already count the rake in your calculation. If you invest \$1.000 and you had a profit of \$100 you ROI would be 10%. Bankroll would be \$1.100 in this simple example.

Hopefully helps this a little bit, but if you have more questions don’t hesitate to ask them.

Cheers,
SDK1987
• Gold
Joined: 29.03.2006
hm. I search for the equation to calculate if a limit is profitable due to the rake. For example, if you play the 1,50\$ sng's you will pay 18c rake per tourney. Because 1,50\$ * 9 players is 13,5\$. The prize pool is 11,88\$ which will, of course, split into 50/30/20. According to that 13,5\$-11,88\$=1.62% rake at all. 1,62% / 9 players = 0,18 rake per player. 1,50\$ buyin / 0,18 rake = 8,3%. How much do I have to win until i beat the rake? 8,3%? According to that how much roi do I need to beat the rake?

ROI = (Profit / Investment) * 100

For example

ROI = 8,3%
Investment = 1,50%

Profit = (ROI * Investment )/100

Profit = (8,3 * 1,5)/100 = 0.125

According to that. I understand what you mend by any roi is profitable even if its marginal. But this doesn't answer my question how do I calculate If a Limit got or a Poker site takes too much rake. I just want to know how do I calculate if a Limit is beatable or not. I sure that the less rake I pay the more profitable is it for me. ( please to count in the player skill. In that cases, it's a different story. I am aware of that.

Thanks a lot for your answer. I just forgot that stuff and can´t find any old notes on this matter.

Cheers,
maniac
• Silver
Joined: 20.04.2011
Hi,
Originally posted by maniac
1,50\$ buyin / 0,18 rake = 8,3%.
it's 0,18/1,50 = 0,12 (or 12% rake)
• Gold
Joined: 29.03.2006
but I have still the question how much do I have to win to beat the 12% rake. Do I need a 12% roi to be break even?

greets

maniac
• Silver
Joined: 20.04.2011
Originally posted by maniac
but I have still the question how much do I have to win to beat the 12% rake. Do I need a 12% roi to be break even?
To break even you need a 0% ROI (with 0% ROI you beat at the same time your opponents and the rake).
• Silver
Joined: 12.10.2010
Dude don't bother playing poker if you are unable to calculate simple percentages. Your bank balance will thank you for it. Sorry for being harsh but it is best to be cruel to be kind.
• Bronze
Joined: 10.11.2011
Thats how you learn, by asking questions
• Gold
Joined: 29.03.2006
I am aware that any kind of roi is profitable. I just want to know how much how much you have to win to beat the rake. I may used the word roi in my early posts in a wrong way. But as you may see this not my point of interest. I am asking because there is a point in a rake structure in which you cant be a winning player if the rake is simply too high. For example, you could not beat something like 50% rake and so on. According to that, there should be a point which you can calculate if the rake for a limit is too high because you cant win this much long term.

Cheers

maniac
• Silver
Joined: 12.10.2010
Originally posted by maniac
I am aware that any kind of roi is profitable. I just want to know how much how much you have to win to beat the rake. I may used the word roi in my early posts in a wrong way. But as you may see this not my point of interest. I am asking because there is a point in a rake structure in which you cant be a winning player if the rake is simply too high. For example, you could not beat something like 50% rake and so on. According to that, there should be a point which you can calculate if the rake for a limit is too high because you cant win this much long term.

Cheers

maniac
You can google for a rake comparison between different poker sites and how much each sites costs in rake. Ipoker charges 6.7% which works out at 13bb/100 in rake. So you need to make 13bbs profit per 100 hands just to break even.

If you play cash, and don't like to pay rake, play on MPN network. The rake is capped at 3BBs per pot.
• Bronze
Joined: 12.10.2016
Try to hit a ROI of 20-30% These are good numbers of players who make good money every month, focuses on one type of structure and gl.
• Black
Joined: 17.10.2007
20+ roi is not maintainable in stt sng. Possible in some 45man+ probably.

On small stake stt over 10% is possible but of one can keep that it's better to move higher stake if possible.
• Gold
Joined: 29.03.2006
Originally posted by ghaleon

On small stake stt over 10% is possible but of one can keep that it's better to move higher stake if possible.

do you mean if I have the br for 3.5\$ sngs its easier to beat them than 1,5\$ sngs?

greets

maniac
• Black
Joined: 17.10.2007
Originally posted by maniac
Originally posted by ghaleon

On small stake stt over 10% is possible but of one can keep that it's better to move higher stake if possible.

do you mean if I have the br for 3.5\$ sngs its easier to beat them than 1,5\$ sngs?

greets

maniac
Well probably not easier to beat but if you get e.g. 8% roi in 1.5\$ and 5% roi in 3.5\$ you will be making more money per game in higher one. Only downside would be bigger swings money wise because of smalle edge and higher buyin. But if there is rake difference and not much difference in player pool then yeah it could be even easier to beat roi wise as well.
• Gold
Joined: 29.03.2006
yeah probably you are right. Nevertheless you have to sure you beat the lower one before advancing to a higher stake. Otherwise you will waste money. I came to the conclusion that if I am sure I beat these lower stake anyhow I should give it
a try. I agree totally that this is will waste time. Thus I think you have to build up confidence that you can do it. Maybe other playes can do this easily, but I am on the conservative side. Just playing deep and at some point you will earn that money by playing plus ev poker. Its my way to cope with these probably lower edge games. Furthermore there are not as bad as expected with table selection and decent play.

greets

maniac
• Black
Joined: 17.10.2007
You don't need to move on higher games in one move. One option is to play some of your games in higher and go from there.