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KK and 1st to act

    • shija
      Joined: 03.02.2009 Posts: 17
      Situations like this always bothered me. What is right move here?

      Early-middle stage of $5 10 people sng, you don't know the players well, but mostly average to bad players on tables like this. You have about 25-30x BB.
      You are in early position with KK. You raise 6-7x BB and everybody but one folded. Flop comes: A46. No flush draws. You are first to act.

      What to do here? IMO there are 3 possible moves:

      1. Check - IMO worst move. If he bets, you have no idea is he bluffing or really have something

      2. Small bet - Probe bet. He can fold, but if he calls you still have no idea what does he have, and also he can make you strong reraise thinking you have no A. Again, you have no idea about his hand.

      3. Strong bet (maybe 3/4 or pot size), but maybe you are already drawing dead, and this bet can cripple your chip stack if he calls or reraises.

      In this situation I made 3/4 pot bet, he reraises, and I folded, but half of my chips were gone.
  • 7 replies
    • Chiller3k
      Joined: 16.06.2007 Posts: 4,326
      I think this Thread belongs into the SNG discussion forum. Hope you don't mind that I moved it.

      Best regards,
    • DontRaiseMee
      Joined: 14.02.2009 Posts: 31
      If you are gonna raise 6-7 the BB, just shove in preflop. A lot of times players in the early stages will call you with hands like AQ/AK because they are willing to gamble to put themselves in position to win. If your opponent does catch an A, then so be it, at least you got in with the best hand. No point just raising preflop with a monster early in a s&g when all you are really looking for is a quick double up.
    • CDVik
      Joined: 05.03.2009 Posts: 30
      When I wake up with high PP in the early stages my normal rutine is a 3-4 BB raise if first in (otherwise a 3-4xfirstraise).

      Then if the flop comes with one overcard (like your example) I normally go for a probebet around ½ potsize.
      Depending on my stacksize and my read on the villain I might shove if the probebet would be a considerable part of my stack.

      So I would mix your option 2 and 3 resulting in a strong probebet.
      The way I see it is that if he hits his ace he can either raise or call. If he just call I can reevaluate on the river and if he raises I (again depending on reads) will put him on Ax and fold.
    • miskokvo
      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 1,502

      first bet 6-8BB preflop in early position with stack of 30BB is bullshit... you pretty much commiting yourself after turn... and you are so easy readable by better players ...if everybody fold you pretty gain nothing with 1,5BB to your 30BB stack

      if somebody has JJ+ they will probably move all in ...drawing hands like AQ+ caling you at those limits... maybe any Ax suited better than A8.

      so only way how to play those is:

      1)bet preflop 3BB (max 4BB) ... if somebody re-raise you try to move all in with him... if you get called
      2) flop is like A49...then conty bet (you are out of position) A is scary card to you but your opponent can easili have KK- (lover pair than you).... if he fold you win pot of like 10BB... if not (he has probably Ace) you are done with hand...

      check: is not an option coz you 90% get reraised and then what?... he will raise after you check even with TT ...

      you will put in pot like max 10BB another 20BB left so you are alive

      your way of play you put into pot 16BB and you are pretty comitent to turn play (move all in or not)

      dont try to be smart at those small limits ... they love to play Ax... and this is best play IMO in your situation

    • shija
      Joined: 03.02.2009 Posts: 17
      Thanks everybody for answers.
      I usually like bigger raise when I'm out of position, because in those smaller limit if you raise 3x, early in tournament when blinds are small, you will get 4-5 callers (everybody with 2 colored cards, 2 pictures, rag ace, smaller pair... ), and that is NOT what I want to see with KK out of position.

      @miskokvo - your way of play you put into pot 16BB and you are pretty comitent to turn play (move all in or not)

      I know that. That is the biggest problem. If I bet little, I will get lot of callers. If I bet strong, I'm already committed to pot, and I could go all in instead. You really can't be smart enough how to play smaller limits.
    • miskokvo
      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 1,502
      i did same mistakes as you raising bigger with kind of hands...
      you can also try to limp and if sombody raise, you will re-raise..

      you must have in mind that KK is 70% favorit of all hand PREFLOP... but that doesnt mean that you should win every postflop play...

      KK,QQ,JJ,TT (even AA) has very VERY bad playability after flop,turn,river...coz if you dont have trips you have only 1 pair ...

      thei are realy easy to play pre-flop but much more harder to play postflop ..coz you reads is like does me beat or not

      is much easier play hands like KQ or etc hiting KQ8 flop ...coz with 2 pair i will go broke definitly ...but when you holding AA your decesion are pretty hard coz if he holding opened str8 draw,flush drow,1 pair with with double belly buster you have like 50-60% to win....

      so at start of SNG when u having like 50BI ... you raise 3BB(max 4bb) ...and make conty bet (when you have over pair in those love limits you can go +EV all in coz you get called) .... if you get called by 4 opponents just imagine that you holding crap like 72 and fold it... your 4 opponents giving you nice odds of 15Bi ... when ace dont hit you pretty has 3:1 maybe 4:1 odds so if you win win big time and your loses to folding KK is covered....

      i can write here all day long of those ...but more important to SNG is to wait to bigger blinds... if you double up in early stage it is nice but your equity doesnt raise in equal range coz there is still 8-9 players left ...

      so if you have 3000chips with 8-9 players
      or 1500chips with 4 players ... it is nearly same...

      having KK when you have like 14Bi just push it ...

      more important on sng is that you surivive to buble and there you can show some skills and make money....

      btw: it is so simple to learn this... just watch vids of chenny8888,unam... they are gr8 players for years..they know far away better play then you and me ...and they raising 3-4BB from early ...they do it for reason... and reaching roi of 20% in micro limitis... it is working pretty well why should you make somthing new?
    • 8979687
      Joined: 11.11.2008 Posts: 2,225
      Miskokvo has some solid advice.

      I would like to add that when you are over raising, the only hands you can
      expect to call you are better ones. In this example you have KK, but
      with a huge open raise, yes you are chasing away the raggy bad callers,
      but you want them to stay in the hand.

      It is on the flop that you raise high enough to protect your hand against
      flush draws and str8 draws and whatever else comes along.

      Preflop you want as much money in the pot as you can get.

      When you have limpers, then you add an extra BB to your bet per limper
      to chase out some garbage but collect dead money for your efforts.

      I feel your pain with having a pile of callers to your regular raises on the micros.

      It used to feel like I was getting called by everyone when raising to 90 chips.

      But I reviewed my hands using Poker Tracker, and really, the times I was
      called by many were outweighed BIG TIME by the times I was called by
      only 1 or 2.

      We just remember the annoying over the good because the amount we are
      pissed off when we get many callers outweighs our reaction when we get one or two.

      We get many callers its like FUCK!!! AGAIN!! SEEMS LIKE EVERY TIME!!...

      But if we raise and we only get the standard 1 or 2 callers, We dont cheer
      and celebrate and shit we just carry on with the hand.

      This causes our brain to record the many callers as a more signifigant event
      and this makes you think it is happening more often than not.

      Good luck!!!