A hand in MLH

    • ShyPh
      Joined: 15.01.2005 Posts: 133
      I was reading MLH (Middle limit Holdem) and a hand showed up that was played very aggressively (and that for MLH!) the sittuation is the following (page 112 hand (8):

      I'm on the Button with Q:spade: T:spade: I raise first in, both blinds call.
      Flops comes: A:spade: 8:spade: 3:club:
      The small blind checks and the big blind bets into me.

      The suggested play in MLH is to raise the flop, and bet the turn and river if only rags come up.
      In some cases this might be the best way to play the hand if the oponent is very aggresive and can lay down a hand. But I do not think this is a good standard play versus an unknown.

      What are your thoughts?
  • 5 replies
    • LastEmu
      Joined: 26.02.2006 Posts: 196
      Because I play at lower limits (.5/1), I'd probably make the more passive move here and call, hoping the SB overcalls. You don't have any fold equity on the flop raise or the turn lead, since it's a steal attempt, and low limits are full of paranoid table sherrifs.

      Because it's middle limit, though, I believe the author is right in thinking that your fold equity + the 35% or so chance you have to improve to the best hand makes this play +EV.
    • liverdracon
      Joined: 17.02.2006 Posts: 7,788
      is it shorthanded or fullring?
    • Sascha26
      Joined: 03.03.2006 Posts: 2,177
      MLH suggests the standard play for a flushdraw at a 3-handed pot. You wanna win the Hand without improving to the flush. Thats why you have to raise the flop an bet the Turn. If you raise, you confront the BB with 2 Bets an he will fold middle or bottom pair, because it is not much likely for him that he is in front, because you represent the ace here. Also the SB can lay down a middle or bottom pair if you bet the turn. If he reraise you on the flop, you can call it and raise the turn again, then also weak aces will often fold. And you still have outs if he calls you.

    • ShyPh
      Joined: 15.01.2005 Posts: 133
      I understand the play he makes, but is it the best play against an unknown? MLH suggests that most players are loose / passive. Would a passive player bet the flop on a flush draw? I doubt it. He might bet an 8 here or a big pocket pair but he is most likely betting an ace. And in my experience you can not make players fold a pair of aces. So the question is what is the better play:

      1. Call and hope the SB calls aswell and hope for the flush.
      2. Raise flop for a freecard on the turn.
      3. Raise flop bet turn for a free showdown.
      4. Raise flop bet turn bet river (suggest by MLH).

      I don't think 4 is the best play here. I feel it's either 1 or 2.
    • Blinzler
      Joined: 04.03.2005 Posts: 7,456
      here are a couple of thoughts about the hand:
      1. we have almost 11 outs (flushdraw, bd straight and maybe a Q or a T can give us the best hand if he bets an 8 or a completet bluff with K high) and thus have a value raise against two opponents
      2. we are in position so we can take a freecard if we want to

      Thus my line would be the following:
      Hero raises the flop
      if sb and bb call i take the freecard on the turn
      if sb folds and bb calls, i bet most turns again
      if sb folds and bb 3-bets i call the flop and depending on my read and the scariness of the turn maybe semibluff raise, against a loose passive i call turn and fold river unimproved

      to raise the flop and bet again against two opponents would imo be over the top aggressive and is flat out wrong, but i doubt that mlh would really suggest doing that against two loose passive players