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[NL2] KK vs. potential AA

    • Bernasconi
      Bernasconi
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.08.2006 Posts: 486
      Long story short: Is it possible to avoid losing the entire stack in this hand? I raise 3BB, get 3-betted and decide to go for a heavy 4-bet which will be answered by an all-in. I cleary have AA in mind, but it could also be QQ, maybe JJ?

      KK vs. AA,QQ is 50% equity
      KK vs. AA,QQ,JJ is 60% equity
      KK vs. AA is 18% equity

      So the question is can I give him only AA in this hand? 15/12/3 with 709 hands.

      888 Poker - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 8 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

      BB: 141.5 BB (VPIP: 15.46, PFR: 12.52, 3Bet Preflop: 3.17, Hands: 709)
      UTG: 100 BB (VPIP: 17.06, PFR: 12.32, 3Bet Preflop: 3.80, Hands: 215)
      Hero (UTG+1): 100 BB
      MP: 44 BB (VPIP: 6.82, PFR: 2.27, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 45)
      MP+1: 131 BB (VPIP: 18.25, PFR: 16.06, 3Bet Preflop: 4.65, Hands: 138)
      CO: 35 BB (VPIP: 26.67, PFR: 6.67, 3Bet Preflop: 3.13, Hands: 91)
      BTN: 55 BB (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 10.00, 3Bet Preflop: 7.69, Hands: 31)
      SB: 136 BB (VPIP: 25.69, PFR: 11.01, 3Bet Preflop: 2.50, Hands: 109)

      SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

      Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K:diamond: K:club:

      fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, MP calls 3 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, BB raises to 13 BB, Hero raises to 30 BB, fold, BB raises to 141.5 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 70 BB and is all-in

      Flop: (203.5 BB, 2 players) T:club: 3:heart: 2:club:

      Turn: (203.5 BB, 2 players) Q:heart:

      River: (203.5 BB, 2 players) 3:club:

      BB shows A:club: A:diamond: (Two Pair, Aces and Threes)
      (Pre 83%, Flop 92%, Turn 95%)
      Hero shows K:diamond: K:club: (Two Pair, Kings and Threes)
      (Pre 17%, Flop 8%, Turn 5%)
      BB wins 191 BB
  • 8 replies
    • Bernasconi
      Bernasconi
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.08.2006 Posts: 486
      I have to add that this is not the only hand. I see a pattern here. This is the second time exactly the same things on the same day against a different opponent:

      888 Poker - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 8 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

      UTG+1: 53 BB (VPIP: 81.48, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 27)
      MP: 54 BB (VPIP: 15.22, PFR: 12.41, 3Bet Preflop: 6.52, Hands: 140)
      MP+1: 132.5 BB (VPIP: 10.20, PFR: 9.51, 3Bet Preflop: 8.06, Hands: 990)
      Hero (CO): 138 BB
      BTN: 45.5 BB (VPIP: 34.55, PFR: 12.11, 3Bet Preflop: 2.56, Hands: 191)
      SB: 103.5 BB (VPIP: 17.54, PFR: 8.77, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 171)
      BB: 128.5 BB (VPIP: 68.75, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 16)
      UTG: 98 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 0.95, 3Bet Preflop: 2.63, Hands: 105)

      SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

      Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K:club: K:diamond:

      fold, UTG+1 calls 1 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 4 BB, fold, SB raises to 14 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 30 BB, SB raises to 103.5 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 73.5 BB

      Flop: (209 BB, 2 players) 3:diamond: 5:heart: 4:spade:

      Turn: (209 BB, 2 players) 3:spade:

      River: (209 BB, 2 players) 5:club:

      Hero shows K:club: K:diamond: (Two Pair, Kings and Fives)
      (Pre 18%, Flop 10%, Turn 5%)
      SB shows A:heart: A:club: (Two Pair, Aces and Fives)
      (Pre 82%, Flop 90%, Turn 95%)
      SB wins 196 BB
    • Pokamon
      Pokamon
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.04.2006 Posts: 554
      do not 4bet. this way you keep their ranges wider.
    • Bernasconi
      Bernasconi
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.08.2006 Posts: 486
      Can you elaborate more on that? I learned that the best way to play AA and KK is to put in as much money as possible because the equity pre flop is very good. Can you elaborate how you would play KK different from AA then and not be exploitable?
    • nitrol
      nitrol
      Silver
      Joined: 24.07.2010 Posts: 12,122
      Some times you will face the top of villain's range but this does not mean that he is doing this with AA only...
      His range is QQ+, AK.
    • MyFloXyBabY
      MyFloXyBabY
      Platinum
      Joined: 15.02.2010 Posts: 3,500
      Originally posted by Bernasconi
      So the question is can I give him only AA in this hand? 15/12/3 with 709 hands.
      It's hard for a 15/12/3 to 3bet something other than KK+ BB vs UTG you know...
    • la55i
      la55i
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 8,534
      Not 4betting is not a good idea in my opinion. That gives MP a better price to call and we probably are not super happy to play this multiway postflop. Villain could still have QQ and some AK combos. With KK we are still a favorite against QQ+,AK. Even vs QQ+,AKs. And we have 40% vs KK+,AKs which could be enough considering how much we have already invested in the pot (didn't calculate it, correct me if I'm wrong).

      But anyway, I think this is quite standard and sometimes we just lose KK vs AA. Shit happens.
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Gold
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 7,211
      well, this is fullring.
      first hand is blinds vs utg, on one hand a standard winning nit's range will be only KK+, on the other hand it's hard to give people credit for not having QQ+ AK in their range (because many people stack these hands even though it might be questionable in very tight games).
      second hand is CO isoraise vs blinds, this should be an "easy" stackoff, but the opponent has literally 0% 3bet over 171 hands. however, you should still just go with it and hope for the best.

      so, this is "standard", but it leaves a sour taste.
    • MyFloXyBabY
      MyFloXyBabY
      Platinum
      Joined: 15.02.2010 Posts: 3,500
      If you can't stand taking it slow with KK by principle "because it's KK" then don't play full ring vs nits.

      You are into one of the few only scenarios where KK isn't a good 4bet and nevertheless you're relenting "because it's KK, we don't know, maybe he's AK one times out of 100..."

      I don't see why or how the call would be bad. We can only lose less and keep their ranges wider. Worst case scenario we lose our stack the same anyway. You're 4betting against someone that stacks off only AA, duh !