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What to do on a 3bet?

    • Passero
      Joined: 28.03.2007 Posts: 34
      I always am comfused what to do on a 3bet...

      Suppose i have QAs in CO. Everybody folds so i raise.

      A 25/12/3 player raised to 3 or 4 times my bet. How do i react? DO i have to fold always and only shove or rerasie with QQ+?

      Is just calling a 3bet profiteable? What if the flop comes Q high and villain (BB) cbets his 3bet on such a flop? Do you go all in?

      I believe that calling a 3bet and folding a flop bet is so bad, even with TPTK but TPTK doesn't gives enough equity to go all in so most of the time i just fold on a 3bet with something like AJ+ (including AKo) because i don't want to go broke with TPTK on a continuation bet on a 3bet.

      So my thoughts are: or you go all in preflop on a 3bet or you fold. The only range you could call a 3bet are perhaps PP (JJ and lower) to setmine...

      QQ is also such a troublesome hand... Is it EV+ to go all in with queens or will i be mostly only be called with AA or KK and the other will fold so that when i get called, i'm way behind, making it -EV.

      Perhaps a good thing to know: i'm playing 10 and 25NL.
  • 6 replies
    • Abe1919
      Joined: 11.09.2008 Posts: 187
      If you know your players and have been concentrating on the table or using HEM or Elephant etc and you know their stats it would help. Have they raised/reraised alot? How many chips they have and you have can make a difference. Position will come into aswell. For example if you raise the button/small blind you're more likely to get a 3bet with worse hands than if you raised from an early position becuase it'll look like a steal from late position. There are many more factors but these are the ones i'll concentrate on as a begginner.
    • Passero
      Joined: 28.03.2007 Posts: 34
      Thanks, i am using HEM and i look at the stats but the thing is... at the moment i sometimes don't have the guts to 4bet or call.

      Is it a good idea to 4bet from the button with AQs if a SB or BB 3bets you?

      And if i am the SB or BB, then i should 3bet much more if the button or CO are the first to raise?
    • Jaissica
      Joined: 10.02.2009 Posts: 1,385
      You really need to know the player more than just react to the position only.

      Nits, rocks, stations, robots (playbook tags playing only from a starting hand chart... common for SSS on micro) nearly never steal or resteal. You can always respect their bet and muck AQs.

      LAGs, maniacs steal/resteal alot. The correct action against a maniac is to bet harder with a slightly wider range, so you can 4-bet or call AQs.

      Thinking TAGs will steal if they think you are also a TAG (or nit, rock or robot). They will also resteal if they think you are a maniac or LAG or even a TAG that simply steals too often. What matters here isnt what cards you have or what cards you think they have, its what cards you think they think you have. Confused yet?

      Consider your own image from the position of SB/BB. Is it tight-never steal or is it loose-steals too much? If your image is tight-not stealing then respect the 3 bet and fold. If your image is loose-stealy then you can 4-bet or call, because the thinking TAG has probably put you on a hand range like 22+ Axo+ 45s+ TJo+ and so will 3bet with a wide range expecting you to fold alot of the time. AQs will often be in front here in this case and you can call / 4bet.
    • Dragar
      Joined: 09.09.2008 Posts: 2,214
      Basically what the poster before me already said:

      You goto be aware of how many times you stole already. You need to be aware how many times SS and BB 3-bet so you can give them a range.

      AQ+ is strong enough for me to call a 3-bet in most cases and evaluate the flop.

      To give you a perspective out of the BB I had a pretty good example today:
      I had AK suited in the BB. There is a limper, CU does a raise. I re-raise to 3.5x his raise. He folds exclaiming he just folded AK because I have a very high pp.

      I will do this kind of move with a much lower range of cards too since I know that BU isolation range will fold a lot to 3-bets.
    • Sholomo
      Joined: 18.04.2007 Posts: 32
      maybe we should go further in this topic and discuss more about 3 bet pots in general. This is something which I havent yet found anywhere to discuss more deeper.

      lets start with
      3 bet pots OOP: usually that means we did 3 bet so there is a caller IP
      (usually blinds vs LP)

      in 1st example we have a pretty loose opener on BTN but he folds a lot to 3 bets, which means his 3bet calling range is tight, and therefore we dont always 3bet for value, but also 3bet bluff...
      -what are good flops to c-bet without a hand ?
      -what are bad flops to c-bet without a hand ?

      -are there any reasons to check/raise with or without a hand? flop structure, and opponent types

      -good flops & turn for 2 barrels and bet sizing? 2 half pot bets or bets that make easy push on the turn

      same questions vs very loose 3bet caller against which we mostly 3bet for value?
      3bet pots IP when we call
    • Passero
      Joined: 28.03.2007 Posts: 34
      Check raise on a 3bet is so bad i believe. Preflop you show massive strength by 3betting. If you then check raise the flop you show massive strength again telling your opponent "I am 100% confident i have you beat". Also by check raising in an allready large pot you give villain massive pot odds to call. If you don't cbet your 3bet but villain takes the role of aggresor and he bets on the flop than mostly he will have to call a small amount compared to the pot, giving him massive odds so you don't have much FE by check raising. The only thing a check raise is good if you want to stack him off. Because of the pot odds he will be more confident to call your raise. So i would never check raise with only an overpair because i will not be sure that this is enough. I would check raise with a flopped set like QQ on a flop 47Q knowing people with AA KK will never fold on such a board.

      But offcourse it all depends on villain. If he is agressive than a check raise could be a good idea to get more value from it if you believe he would fold on your cbet. Check raising on the flop after a 3bet almost dictates an all in because your stacksize will be to small to bet a proper amount on the turn i believe. So if you are planning on check raising i would go all in on such a move.

      Yesterday i had a discussion with my brother about 3betting and his idea is to always cbet after a 3bet. At first i didn't had to much confidence in that statement but i tryed it out and it works. When someone shovs on your cbet you know your beat unless the board is dry and you hold QQ+.

      Based on range... If there is one raiser in front of you and you 3bet from the BB and villain just calls than i think we could assign a range like 22+ or 55+, AQs+,AQo+
      With QQ,KK,AA people will mostly want to go all in preflop although i'm not sure about QQ so if they call a 3bet i think it's safe to say the chance they hold aces or kings are small but they do exist!