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Trips oop ott 3way

    • Mascherano95
      Mascherano95
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.10.2010 Posts: 232
      Cooler or misplayed? Villain is a 50/30 fish with passive postflop tendencies

      PokerStars - $0.05 PL Hi FAST (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 6 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

      BTN: 123.4 BB (VPIP: 22.75, PFR: 11.76, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 264)
      SB: 151.4 BB (VPIP: 31.58, PFR: 21.05, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 19)
      Hero (BB): 244 BB
      UTG: 217.8 BB (VPIP: 20.36, PFR: 13.21, 3Bet Preflop: 3.51, Hands: 286)
      MP: 100 BB (VPIP: 30.51, PFR: 20.34, 3Bet Preflop: 4.35, Hands: 120)
      CO: 95.8 BB (VPIP: 48.53, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 138)

      SB posts SB 0.4 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

      Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has K:club: J:heart: 5:spade: K:diamond:

      fold, fold, CO raises to 2 BB, fold, SB raises to 7 BB, Hero calls 6 BB, CO calls 5 BB

      Flop: (21 BB, 3 players) 7:diamond: 5:heart: 5:diamond:
      SB checks, Hero bets 20.2 BB, CO calls 20.2 BB, SB calls 20.2 BB

      Turn: (81.6 BB, 3 players) 4:spade:
      SB checks, Hero bets 78.4 BB, CO calls 68.6 BB and is all-in, fold

      River: (218.8 BB, 2 players) Q:diamond:

      Hero shows K:club: J:heart: 5:spade: K:diamond: (Three of a Kind, Fives)
      (Pre 55%, Flop 35%, Turn 13%)
      CO shows T:club: 6:diamond: 5:club: 8:diamond: (Flush, Queen High)
      (Pre 45%, Flop 65%, Turn 88%)
      CO wins 210.2 BB
  • 19 replies
    • Lasso
      Lasso
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.06.2006 Posts: 5,628
      fold preflop
    • SDK1987
      SDK1987
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 12.11.2008 Posts: 39,230
      Originally posted by Lasso
      fold preflop
      Maybe good to tell why you would fold pre-flop. Otherwise this is a useless comment.
    • Mascherano95
      Mascherano95
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.10.2010 Posts: 232
      ye the comment is useless, not only because usually I do fold this pre, but I called because of villains tendency postflop. How would you have played it postflop would be the point
    • SeagalSteven
      SeagalSteven
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 926
      Fold because the hand is that bad.
    • Lasso
      Lasso
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.06.2006 Posts: 5,628
      Alright then.

      Cooler or misplayed?
      The hand is misplayed since it's a fold preflop.

      I hope that in-depth analysis makes it more clear.
    • Mascherano95
      Mascherano95
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.10.2010 Posts: 232
      @SeagalSteven:
      Fold because the hand is that bad.
      ugh another useless 1-liner.. gods sake. do you mean preflop or any other streets too?
      PLO has multiple streets to play and a preflop mistake does not automatically implicate, that the hand was misplayed on other streets too. Beside this I am still not so sure if the Fold preflop is so clear. .. KK has the potential to set over set and stack off otf against weaker players. Which hands you call there? And more important: Why?



      @Lasso:

      How would you have played it postflop would be the point .

      As you can see in my previous comment I was actually interested for the postflop line.
      If that was your in-depth analysis ... well you have room for improvement Id say.
    • SeagalSteven
      SeagalSteven
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 926
      Disconnected rainbow kings is a weak omaha hand. You shouldnt even open this from early position unless some good reason and just fold vs 3bets. Therefore cold-calling with it is not a good play, even when you get some discount since CO min opened. Basically you have some potential to stack someone if you hit your K, otherwise hand is just useless.

      Postflop I dont generally like potting in theory as people will not continue with weak holdings and your bluffs are expensive, but guess these folks dont really care and you can just pot it away and they will call with whatever crap.

      Turn there is pot sized bet left so just get it in when taking this aproach against call happy friend. Straight with 68 got there and you could be almost dead against made FH but he can also have worse 5 or FD he likes to see river with.
    • Mascherano95
      Mascherano95
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.10.2010 Posts: 232
      Its not in my opening range. My KK portion of my opening range from utg is:

      ds: KK+ds,

      alss: KK+ (with high suit or connector as SV)
      alss with 3tone: KK$R,
      KK[43+],
      KK[63+],
      rb AKK, KK$N$N, KK[76+],


      I also have coldcalling ranges and they do not include KKrb as a default, dont worry..^^
      But I try to adjust to table condition, and some weak players go really crazy even with deep SPR, so I though set over set might be a good idea.

      I am usually not flatcalling 3bet when I have a sinlge pair or an Ace on my hand. But its kinda minraise bc 2bet 2bb then 3bet only 7bb.

      Would you flat stuff oop like QJJTds? Or JTT9ds cause its not so dominated by AA.

      Yea usually otf I lead 30-40% as standard in 3bp oop on paired flops, but because its plo5 and ppl call it anyway, I just potted it. Same thought as you.
      Yea turn I had the same thought.

      Well I thank you for you answer.
    • Lasso
      Lasso
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.06.2006 Posts: 5,628
      ive read what you wrote before edit. im wondering how you think i skipped plo2 to plo100? also i got in what relation that was and why that part got edited out later on.

      as ive said its a fold pre. and postlfop i mean what do you even wanna flop? pot flop pot turn there is no other way of playing the hand. with that shitty hand the board came almost as good as it can get. he can have so many worse hands even after turn. but yea sometimes youre beat.

      and btw the way i replied was the way it is because you always act like you know everything. you got all these ranges and all these simulations and know about bet sizings and all that stuff that this spot based on your "knowledge" should be a nobrainer. then again you appear here with that hand where obviously the breaking point is not postflop but preflop. and thats not the first time this has happened. asking for help is nice thats what the board is here for but the way you comment on other players hands while at the same time you literally play the lowest micros possible is just disrespectful. i dont go anywhere and tell someone at plo1k or even at my stakes how to play the hand because i just dont have the knowledge. i might be a decent winner at up to plo200 but most players are just winning players because their opponents are trashy. to me its just wrong to share opinions with players that play way above your own limits. when this community was really active back in the days and i was grinding the small stakes i read almost every hand that was posted on higher limits. i felt like i can learn a lot. but i would not share my opinion as i had no idea about the limit itself and how people played there. i would have never gotten to the idea of posting as i would feel ashamed of leaving too many dumb comments. also i didnt want to annoy no one. i read the conversations and eventually the hand judge shared his opinion too so i could see if it agreed with mine or no. ultimately hand judges are not always right of course but given their experience they rarely talk complete bullshit.

      anyway thats basically the reason i stopped posting hands as it annoyed me too much. i get behind the fact that sharing opinions is fine but you should some what be on the same level to have an argument where both sides benefit. dont get me wrong i help a ton of lower stakes players on several discord servers so its not like i dislike to help others but i would never go ahead and judge hands of players playing up to plo200 for example while i play plo5. same goes for nl. how can you take someones opinion serious whos playing nl5 when commenting on plo100+ hands. this just isnt right. if you want to learn you should learn from your hands and the mistakes you made and idealy be judged by better players. imagine you play plo100+ one day and a guy starts giving you advice when that guys is playing plo5. taking advice from someone whos most likely not better than you makes no sense.

      also with your post or well the part that you edit out again i kind of got confirmation that my decision was the correct one. and from now ill stay away from your threads as this seems to be the best for everyone. gl
    • Mascherano95
      Mascherano95
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.10.2010 Posts: 232
      ye I deleted that part, because I thought, it is not topic related, might be too harsh and its not my business which stakes ppl play or how they got there.


      as ive said its a fold pre. and postlfop i mean what do you even wanna flop? pot flop pot turn there is no other way of playing the hand
      That was not so clear for me so you could have wrote that.

      and btw the way i replied was the way it is because you always act like you know everything
      How you think that? I am writing my thoughts very detailed and put into all my ideas because I have no reflection and I am hoping to get corrected if my thoughts are faulty. Thats why.

      When I post a hand I will add which spots are interesting for me but of course it is always useful to hear opinions about other streets played as well.
      I dont think I am behaving disrespectful, I am writing posts in the RIO forum in the same manner, and people like Phil Galphond answered to my posts in a detailed way as it helps me alot in this form, he is probably also playing higher stakes but still making thoughts about decision on lower stakes. Of course if there are different opinions emotions can come up. I dont think "opponents are trashy" but they play in a way that is weak and it makes sense to talk about those different weaknesses and not to put em all into the same bin and state, its an easy nobrainer.

      I think though that 1-liners can be pretty useless, you cannot say fold that hand for 100% and at the same time there is no reason why to do so. In that case it is actually really better to post nothing :f_eek:

      Yea thats a problem: different player pools. But you dont have to comment, when you feel like you never played players like those (or you cannot remember how you played em when you have been on those stakes in the case you did not skip :f_rolleyes: )

      I dont think that is true that is a mistake to take other stakes srsly, you can learn from player playing lower stakes and vice versa. At the end it is a people game and fish can have the sam tendencies on all stakes, whereas there can be different exploitative lines that are similar from stake to stake aswell.

      I dont know how you reached the conclusion, that your decision not to post to my threads anymore was correct, and I dont think thats the best at least for me because I learn a lot from arguments like this. But lol ofc you can post to any threads you like or dont like :s_drink:
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 11,251
      To sum up:
      :diamond:   Rainbow kings isn't really a playable Omaha hand
      :diamond:   Cold-calling a 3Bet is rarely a good idea, especially if you'll have to play post-flop OOP
      :diamond:   low-to middle trips on a draw-heavy board is not strong enough post-flop -- you have too few redraws.

      For some reason, this thread got a wee bit nasty.
      Please keep the comments on topic, and respectful.

      Thanks!
      VS
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 11,277
      Fold pre. Your hand is one-dimensional, you need to hit the K to win a hand (mostly). So 7/8 times you end up either folding the flop or calling and then folding on turn/river or losing at the showdown.

      Longer answer:
      We play a hand in PLO for three reasons:
      - Skill advantage
      - Range advantage
      - Positional advantage

      Now which one of those applies to your situation? As the pot is multiway, your position won't matter that much as there is less room to make moves. And CO is in position to you, so you are sandwiched. Due to those three reasons I always teach a simple approach: Don't cold call 3bets.

      There are some situations where that doesn't apply, but for most cases it's not profitable to cold call 3bets. It's nice when you hit something and win a big pot, but you will fold so much postflop that it doesn't make it up. If you don't believe me, just go to your database and filter out hands where you call 3bet. The graph is going downwards if the sample size is at least a decent one.

      As played, why pot the flop? You just isolate yourself against a really strong range. Bet half a pot to keep their weaker hands in the pot and get value from those. When both call, you should be cautious on the turn.
    • Mascherano95
      Mascherano95
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.10.2010 Posts: 232
      ye. only 1 component kinda sux. nono I believe you, it is really going downwards

      flop: well, my betting range oop is kinda more tight compared to IP so I am bettin stronger hands in general and when I am stronger I bet bigger to build the pot. When I have an inbetween marginal hands like overpair I dont want to play it face-up by betting it smaller. If I had trips or a strong hand, I also would not bet half pot right?
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 11,277
      Why not bet half a pot with your whole range?
    • Mascherano95
      Mascherano95
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.10.2010 Posts: 232
      As I said to build to the pot for value on future streets with an overall stronger range. Is there any error in this thought?
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 11,277
      When you bet big, these things happen:

      - Your risk/reward for bluffs get worse (=you need more FE for the bluff to be +EV)
      - Opp calling range might get tighter (=less value when you actually have a hand)
      - Chance for opp to bluff you goes down (=less value when you actually have a hand)

      When you bet big, opp folds more. When you bet really small, opp folds less. So it's about finding sweet spot where you get value if you have it and you can still bluff when you don't have it. If you pot with bluff, opp needs to fold at least half of his hands. If you bet half a pot, he needs to fold at least 1/3 of his hands. The question is this: if we bet pot, does his calling range chance that much that it makes up the missed value in bluffs?

      Versus all kinds of calling ranges on paired boards it's easier to get 40% FE than 50%+ FE. And in locked boards it's quite rare that you get to play for stacks. Most of the times at least one of you misses the board. So I would choose the sizing according to the most common spots, which is when opp misses the board. In that case, you don't want to bet too bit with bluffs nor value hands (if you have the trips/boat, it's really hard for him to have anything. Don't scare him away too often).
    • Mascherano95
      Mascherano95
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.10.2010 Posts: 232
      1.
      oop I have the feelin I dont have lots of FE because villains are very sticky to pots in position, some more loose regulars aswell love to float. My though is somehow, I would make them pay for it by betting bigger. At the sametime it is easier to balance because I dont have so many bluffs usually oop. 3way I am not bluffing often oop. But I still get in trouble spots so often because trips are rare overall. And on the other hand this leads me often to river spots on various kinds of board textures especially when there is a equity shift turn-river, where they might hit their hand and with 1 potsized bet I get into a difficult situation, I dont know check-call or just bet allin. I am often not sure what is better or I maybe even should fold. The bet-bet-bet pot is more variance heavy for sure but I also think it is more +EV overall against lots of sticky opp's especially on more dynamic board textures. As far I can remember you and also other ppl reommended betting halfpot on 2tone flops aswell. In coaching vids its been recommend to bet bigger oop though because 1) range polarity and 2) range strength advantage. It is exploiting the call-call-fold and call-fold lines. I am not sure how to weight all those different factors.

      2.
      yes. I think this is true against regulars, but I am not sure vs more fishier players (vpip40+) as they call more often with the same range and do not care so much about bet sizing on earlier streets. On later streets they find themself somehow commited to relative smaller but in absolute bigger bets and keep calling with weaker hands.

      3.
      yes true, this is a nice protection vs bluffs.


      Most of the times at least one of you misses the board. So I would choose the sizing according to the most common spots, which is when opp misses the board. often
      you are right, I should bet smaller on paired/lockdown boards oop..

      I will follow up with hands on 2tone flop later. I have problems with bet-sizing too on other board textures.
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 11,277
      Here is really simple way:

      Locked (paired, monotone) and really dry (K72r) boards: half a pot
      Everything else: 3/4 pot

      In multiwaypots (at micros) we should mostly play for value so if you bet, bet big: 3/4 to full pot.
    • Mascherano95
      Mascherano95
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.10.2010 Posts: 232
      ok ty