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[NL2] is it better to shove flop?

    • diabloykiss
      diabloykiss
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2018 Posts: 60
      I 4bet bluff here with AQs, hit a decent flop and my plan was to check/call flop or turn, thinking he would only fire once. But thinking deeper after the hand, I think the best play is to just shove flop. not even check/raise it.

      we block hands like AK AA QQ, AK is more possible but he is folding to a shove imo. So we get calls from TT JJ KK ofc AA QQ but we make him fold AK against which we're behind and still got good equity against all the hands with our FD

      PokerStars - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

      Hero (UTG): 142.5 BB
      MP: 161 BB (VPIP: 40.15, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 9.30, Hands: 136)
      CO: 109 BB (VPIP: 18.06, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 3.23, Hands: 148)
      BTN: 128.5 BB (VPIP: 20.75, PFR: 13.21, 3Bet Preflop: 2.70, Hands: 107)
      SB: 109.5 BB (VPIP: 24.79, PFR: 23.93, 3Bet Preflop: 9.09, Hands: 123)
      BB: 133 BB (VPIP: 42.86, PFR: 28.57, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 7)

      SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

      Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q:spade: A:spade:

      Hero raises to 3 BB, MP raises to 10.5 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 26 BB, MP calls 15.5 BB

      Flop: (53.5 BB, 2 players) 5:heart: T:spade: 3:spade:
      Hero checks, MP bets 26 BB, Hero calls 26 BB

      Turn: (105.5 BB, 2 players) 9:club:
      Hero checks, MP bets 51 BB, Hero calls 51 BB

      River: (207.5 BB, 2 players) T:diamond:
      Hero checks, MP bets 58 BB and is all-in, fold

      MP wins 200 BB


      I think the line I took was just wrong. It was probably better to just flat it as we were deep but was trying different things.
  • 9 replies
    • zetozinho
      zetozinho
      Silver
      Joined: 18.06.2017 Posts: 181
      I think the 4bet size was too small. OOP I'd make it 40BB or so.
      I think the primary mistake was the turn. You were not getting the correct price to pursuit the spade and you were OOP. By calling here you are comitting yourself to a pot where you have ace high against a villain IP that called your 4bet and double barrelled so far. You're behind here almost 100% of the times. Shove or fold here.

      By going all-in OTF you increase your equity. With 9 outs for the flush and the 3 aces (not even considering a Q with give you the best hand) it's a coinflip. I think it's best than call and wait for the turn.
      You'll get called by QQ, TT, maybe JJ. AK is folding for sure.
    • MyFloXyBabY
      MyFloXyBabY
      Gold
      Joined: 15.02.2010 Posts: 3,025
      The 4bet size is ok but the spot isn't. Just flat your AQs preflop please (if else I wonder how weak your flatting range looks like) and 4bet bluff MP with something like A5s, KQo, or AJo instead. Moreover if you're deep.

      As played it's weird indeed, you're nearly all-in when you call turn so I suppose it'd have been better to shove flop even if you'll often lose.
    • MLima1984
      MLima1984
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.05.2015 Posts: 63
      I wouldnt 4bet pre in this situation. OTF i think i would just call also, because i dont like to risk all my stack on a coin flip (thats if u count the A). OTT is a fold for sure
    • CucumbaMan
      CucumbaMan
      Silver
      Joined: 13.10.2017 Posts: 290
      Agree with the others. OTT it is a fold for me as well, flop call looks fine.
    • Zire99
      Zire99
      Platinum
      Joined: 23.09.2016 Posts: 5
      Originally posted by MLima1984
      I wouldnt 4bet pre in this situation. OTF i think i would just call also, because i dont like to risk all my stack on a coin flip (thats if u count the A). OTT is a fold for sure
      I wouldn't 4 bet either. But I would risk my stack for a coin flip + fold equity any day.
    • Sunrise1912
      Sunrise1912
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.11.2009 Posts: 412
      Ok, why is nobody cbetting this flop ? Clear cbet flop with the intention to shove turn. This way you put huge pressure on his JJ/AK type of hands. I even think he would fold AK. You still have a decent equity against every possible holding of the villian.

      Basically with AK/AQ spades + AA/KK i am cbetting the flop and shoving the turn.
    • Endurx
      Endurx
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.11.2008 Posts: 3,472
      if you 4bet AQs there shouldnt be any hands that your calling, you turned in bluff best possible hand that you could call to his 3bet, if you get such a flop why didnt u check rise the flop, calling is the worst possible way to do holding FD on Ace in 3bet pot OOP
    • semiramiRNMD
      semiramiRNMD
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2009 Posts: 1,089
      I don't like it. AQs is obviously not a good candidate for a 4-bet bluff, and I don't think you should have a 4-bet bluff range UTG vs MP on 2NL, unless if you know the player very well. On the flop I'll C-bet any day, taking the passive line in this situation is a big mistake IMO.
    • la55i
      la55i
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 8,367
      Originally posted by Sunrise1912
      Ok, why is nobody cbetting this flop ? Clear cbet flop with the intention to shove turn. This way you put huge pressure on his JJ/AK type of hands. I even think he would fold AK. You still have a decent equity against every possible holding of the villian.

      Basically with AK/AQ spades + AA/KK i am cbetting the flop and shoving the turn.
      I would not 4bet pre but as played I think this line would be just fine. I like the reasoning. Also, if we check with Snowie or with a GTO solver this is probably what those would suggest.