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Proof that Game Theory Optimal Can Be Found With Thoughts Alone

    • yadijavadi
      yadijavadi
      Basic
      Joined: 31.01.2018 Posts: 83
      Have you ever played the game tick-tack-toe? Over here in the UK we call it Naughts and Crosses. As a child, after you play this game a few times with the same sibling, you quickly reach a stage when there is no longer any point in playing. This is because both you and your opponent have reached GTO.

      Did we all study complex mathematical equations to reach GTO?? No. We used only our mind. Our thoughts.
  • 147 replies
    • MyFloXyBabY
      MyFloXyBabY
      Gold
      Joined: 15.02.2010 Posts: 2,971
      My god that guy never stops... it's quite pathetic. :facepalm:
      Maybe we can do something about it, there should be a charity taking money for cases like him and all. :P

      If our mind could so easily find that GTO strategy we wouldn't need to buy expensive solvers, that'd be great ! =)
    • la55i
      la55i
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 8,346
      I think my head is gonna explode soon :why:
    • yadijavadi
      yadijavadi
      Basic
      Joined: 31.01.2018 Posts: 83
      I’m sorry this is making your head explode. I genuinely am.

      To get some context here - I was trying to prove to you that if you use your mind to strategize rationally you will eventually reach GTO. Then you said many times that GTO was a math thing and could not be found using the mind alone.

      “GTO is a math thing, it has nothing to do with thinking”
      “I must strongly disagree with the statement that "GTO can be found using math but it can also be found using the mind”

      I was mocked like usual, the thread was closed like usual, and then with about 3 sentences in this thread I completely obliterated your argument.

      You can say I’m a charity case, you can call me pathetic. You can mock me all you want but it won’t change the fact that I’m right. I urge you to get control of your emotions so that you, and by extension many other people, can learn what I've come here to teach you.

      Do you have any logical argument to contend with mine, or are you going to concede that I am correct?
    • MyFloXyBabY
      MyFloXyBabY
      Gold
      Joined: 15.02.2010 Posts: 2,971
      You are clearly not understanding what GTO is. I suppose you don't work with a solver and haven't read maths books about it.

      You're also probably confusing what the link between what you call "maths" and "thought" might be. Scientists and philosophers have struggled for centuries to try to define whatever a thought can be, and pecularly a mathematical one, and the great naivity with which you are supposing there is a clear and simple accord about it is quite fun.
      But by all means, keep up rambling about how we are so stupid and you so right with your delirium. You'll get far in life.
    • CptJokerFish
      CptJokerFish
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2017 Posts: 888
      I study GTO solutions and look out for pattern then you I use this knowledge and apply it to different situations. In this case I would use my "mind" to play accordingly to GTO. (But usually I use GTO only as a guideline. Because most of the time the EV will be higher when we deviate from GTO.)

      But its Impossible for a human to play 100% accordingly to GTO because we must use so many different frequencies for our hand combos.

      In some spots we know the correct frequency so in this case we can play certain hand combos 100% accordingly to GTO but we will play other combos with other frequencies because we dont know the correct frequencie and there is the point where we deviate so we dont play a complete strategy 100% accordingly to GTO.

      There are just to many different frequencies that it becomes impossible for a human to store all these information in brain.
      So its possible to play close to GTO but not 100% GTO without using a tool.

      We could take a look in a pre-calculated GTO database then we can take a randomizer and play all of our combos correct accordingly to GTO but then we dont solve the problem with our "mind".

      But even the most solver solutions are not 100% correct. It depends at what accuarcy the user stops the solver.
    • la55i
      la55i
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 8,346
      Dear Yadijavadi,

      This is your fourth thread. Thank you for making this one short and easy to read. You still didn't manage to prove anything though.

      We have explained several times to you why we think you are talking nonsense. In one of your threads you quoted wikipedia and tried to tell us what game theory is. In that thread TJtheTJ argued quite well why you are wrong and he clearly pointed out that you don't completely understand what you are talking about (Proving that GTO is Level Infinity). You can also see this from the posts above by CptJokerFish and MyFloXyBabY.

      There has been many wise guys telling you to think about this again. For example, MyFloXyBabY is so good that he sometimes gets to call me a fish :f_rolleyes: If I were you, I would really listen to what others are saying and really consider the possibility that you are wrong.

      You didn't completely obliterate our arguments. In my opinion it is quite the opposite. You don't probably see that. That is because you seem to lack knowledge in the very topic you are debating about.

      We have been doing this for soooo long that everyone seems to get a bit bored. At least I do, hence my short one sentence post about my head exploding. If you want to continue rambling about this, by all means do so. But I doubt you will get anyone to understand you. And the reason is not that everyone in this world except you is suffering from some kind of a mental problem.
    • MyFloXyBabY
      MyFloXyBabY
      Gold
      Joined: 15.02.2010 Posts: 2,971
      Originally posted by la55i
      For example, MyFloXyBabY is so good that he sometimes gets to call me a fish :f_rolleyes:
      Hardly earned skill is there is any 8-)

      I can feel proud about myself :truestory:
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 11,253
      Originally posted by MyFloXyBabY
      Originally posted by la55i
      For example, MyFloXyBabY is so good that he sometimes gets to call me a fish :f_rolleyes:
      We all get to call you a fish! :coolface:
      We would be wrong, but we can still call you that... :s_biggrin:

      All the best,
      VS
    • Primrose6789
      Primrose6789
      Gold
      Joined: 01.07.2016 Posts: 2,940
      I can do that! I can do that! Listen to this, guys: When I look deeeep into my crystal ball, then I see it. I see GTO! I know the correct play. Oooooom, I only have to look in my crystal ball. Sometimes I use to read the soup. When there are a lot of veggies in my soup, I know, I have to raise and 3-bet more. I should play tight when the soup has not enough salt and spices. But I got that skill!

      Ooops, now I told the deepest secrets of a tournament player :f_o: :f_o: :f_o: :f_o:
    • CptJokerFish
      CptJokerFish
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2017 Posts: 888
      Originally posted by Primrose6789
      I can do that! I can do that! Listen to this, guys: When I look deeeep into my crystal ball, then I see it. I see GTO! I know the correct play. Oooooom, I only have to look in my crystal ball. Sometimes I use to read the soup. When there are a lot of veggies in my soup, I know, I have to raise and 3-bet more. I should play tight when the soup has not enough salt and spices. But I got that skill!

      Ooops, now I told the deepest secrets of a tournament player :f_o: :f_o: :f_o: :f_o:
      Can you sell me one of these crystal balls please? :f_love:
    • Primrose6789
      Primrose6789
      Gold
      Joined: 01.07.2016 Posts: 2,940
      Originally posted by CptJokerFish
      Originally posted by Primrose6789
      I can do that! I can do that! Listen to this, guys: When I look deeeep into my crystal ball, then I see it. I see GTO! I know the correct play. Oooooom, I only have to look in my crystal ball. Sometimes I use to read the soup. When there are a lot of veggies in my soup, I know, I have to raise and 3-bet more. I should play tight when the soup has not enough salt and spices. But I got that skill!

      Ooops, now I told the deepest secrets of a tournament player :f_o: :f_o: :f_o: :f_o:
      Can you sell me one of these crystal balls please? :f_love:
      The crystal ball is not enough. You need the SKILL to read the right GTO move out of the crystal ball. That´s a skill you need to controll your thoughts and to contact the outer world. I´m a medium, I contact aliens and their message can be seen in the crysal ball. Contact me unter: 6789-Partypoker-Medium for further messages from the aliens. Fist minute is 2 €, every other minute 5 €.

      Call me: 6789-Partypoker-Medium
    • yadijavadi
      yadijavadi
      Basic
      Joined: 31.01.2018 Posts: 83
      Lots of mocking here... So... You don't even realise that that is GTO lol... Errm... Let me get some non-poker players to explain this to you...
    • Mozzek
      Mozzek
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.07.2016 Posts: 1,149
      Funny :D . GTO is strategy that will make you reach the most EV. I don´t know what´s your point yadija... but theoretically it´s possible to make only GTO moves with just your mind. Well, thats theoretically, in real world I don´t see it happen - ever. I think that would mean a one being far more intelligent than on genius level. How many ppl like that exist? :D

      PS: I didn´t read last thread, too many, way too long posts there, so I might be missing something, but it seemed you are having fun here so I joined :D .
    • MyFloXyBabY
      MyFloXyBabY
      Gold
      Joined: 15.02.2010 Posts: 2,971
      Originally posted by yadijavadi
      You don't even realise that that is GTO lol... Errm... Let me get some non-poker players to explain this to you...
      :pcuser:
      :spit:

      Indeed we are having fun here, non poker players will explain us GTO ! :yaoming:
      Seems totally legit. They should understand GTO way better than us, poor poker players and game theoricians. Why would we know better about this subject ?

      Here is probably why you are so retarded in fact : you seem to be confusing the complex and entire GTO strategy IN POKER with some basic and simple idea of an equilibrium in easy thought experiments like rock-paper-scissors.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 11,253
      Originally posted by Mozzek
      Funny :D . GTO is strategy that will make you reach the most EV.
      I rather suspect that if everyone played true GTO that they would all win about the same amount -- and thus everyone would lose to rake.

      Although we talk about "balancing ranges" to avoid being exploited, the best way to play is to exploit your opponents tendencies.
      Furthermore, it is necessary to avoid having predictable tendencies yourself. Game theory says nothing about play on a single hand. It only seeks to define what would be best in the long term.

      Originally posted by Primrose6789
      I´m a medium, I contact aliens and their message can be seen in the crystal ball
      I'm a large, but I don't see what T-Shirt size has to do with this topic.
      In my case, the aliens contact me -- but fortunately I have my trusty tinfoil hat to use when I don't want to be disturbed. Mind you, several people believe that I am already quite disturbed.

      Peace,
      VS
    • TJtheTJ
      TJtheTJ
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2011 Posts: 6,677
      GTO is strategy that will make you reach the most EV.
      Like Vorpal said this is not necessarily true. Playing GTO means your strategy cannot be exploited regardless of the strategy your opponent chooses. However that doesn't necessarily mean it's the highest EV play. There are many cases where deviating from a GTO strategy (in other words, exploiting your opponent) will have a higher EV than the GTO strategy. :)

      Also is there any way I can get one of those crystal balls please? I'm pretty sure as a renowned psychic and soul reader I have the skill to read them. Preferably for free, thank you.
    • yadijavadi
      yadijavadi
      Basic
      Joined: 31.01.2018 Posts: 83
      GTO is not the strategy that makes you the most money. GTO is the strategy that makes you the most money regardless of your opponents strategy. The play that makes you the most money is exploitative.

      I just peeled this from google...

      Game Theory Optimal (GTO) Strategy. The concept of an unexploitable strategy in Poker derives directly from this. It refers to a decision in some particular situation for which an opponent cannot make a profitable counter. Another term for such a strategy is “game theory optimal” or GTO.

      So, GTO is a poker term, but it basically relates to one half of an equilibrium strategy. In Poker, GTO is very complex, and so it is difficult to show you that you do not need complex math to concoct said strategy. This is why I used this example of a simple game, to show you that even a child can use his mind to find an equilibrium strategy. Hence, destroying all your earlier arguments.

      (could you please not throw an insult into every post you make. It is really hard for me to not throw any back, and the second I do, the mods will close my thread for the 20th time saying that I'm being rude. This is definitely not fair, especially as I'm not being paid to teach you all the definition of GTO)
    • Primrose6789
      Primrose6789
      Gold
      Joined: 01.07.2016 Posts: 2,940
      Won´t give away my GTO-magic crystal ball :f_ugly:

      1.000.000 Euro :f_tongue: :f_ugly:
    • TJtheTJ
      TJtheTJ
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2011 Posts: 6,677
      Originally posted by Primrose6789
      Won´t give away my GTO-magic crystal ball :f_ugly:

      1.000.000 Euro :f_tongue: :f_ugly:
      It was worth a try :f_biggrin: :f_drink: