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Is it wise to call an all-in ?

  • 20 replies
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 11,392
      HI lovi4nina,
      Oh dear, I hate saying this, but "it depends" -- that is always the answer in poker.
      In this case it depends on:
      :diamond:   your stack size
      :diamond:   your opponents stack size
      :diamond:   your position
      :diamond:   exactly how many left before the bubble
      :diamond:   how many get paid, and how much each
      :diamond:   how tight/loose your opponent plays

      I'm sure there are other criteria though.that's all I can think of for now.

      After all that, in general, yes -- calling is OK. If you're folding kings pre-flop you need to have a really good reason.

      This sounds like a question about a particular hand -- why not post the hand history in one of the hand evaluation forums?

      For Sit-and-Go discussions
      For MTTs

      Best of luck,
      VS
    • CptJokerFish
      CptJokerFish
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2017 Posts: 992
      There are situations in Sngs where you must fold even AA vs. a all-In because of ICM.

      But if you are a beginner then you will play probably microstakes. So in this case I would always call a preflop all-In with KK or AA because the people in microstakes are usually pretty bad so that they go also with bad hands.

      I dont know excactely where you must fold AA or KK preflop so I would just call always the all-in.

      Just study ICM situations and stuff like bubble factor.
    • cheihmi
      cheihmi
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.07.2011 Posts: 30
      on those all in situation near the bubble I would call with AA KK even AKs , not matter what
      those are very strong starting hands, I would play them even if opponents get really tight statistics.
      if I'm out @ bubble with those strong hands, so be it, I would leave with no regrets and with my head up.
      Gl @ table, cheers mates :f_rolleyes:
    • cheihmi
      cheihmi
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.07.2011 Posts: 30
      Is someone call8ng QQ open UTG 30 Bb vs re raise push from button early on in a MTT ? 🤔🤔🤔
    • bookai
      bookai
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.02.2012 Posts: 3,961
      Originally posted by cheihmi
      Is someone call8ng QQ open UTG 30 Bb vs re raise push from button early on in a MTT ? 🤔🤔🤔
      Effecive stack is 30BBs? Pray, cry call, pray some more? Unless one of the players is too nitty to be beat by QQ :f_thumbsup:
    • SDK1987
      SDK1987
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 12.11.2008 Posts: 39,560
      Only in rare situations like in double or nothings and satellites you can profitable fold AA or KK, but that's in most games not the case.

      Cheers,
      SDK1987
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 11,392
      Originally posted by SDK1987
      Only in rare situations like in double or nothings and satellites you can profitable fold AA or KK
      Even in those situations it requires a special set of circumstances:
      :diamond:   If you play your AA and lose, you will finish out-of-the money
      :diamond:   AND there are one or more players with shorter stacks that will blind out ahead of you.

      All the best,
      VS
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 11,392
      I thought of this thread as I played this hand
      We're about 20 away from the money -- the money in this case is the top 80 players get a ticket to a $5.50 tournament. I won the ticket into this tournament, and I've made two $0.50 rebuys at this point.

      I'm in about 60th place, 80 get paid, and there are a hundred still in

      888 Poker - 125/250 Ante 25 NL - Holdem - 9 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

      SB: 3,315
      BB: 14,698
      Hero (UTG): 5,480
      UTG+1: 2,975
      MP: 3,005
      MP+1: 2,950
      MP+2: 3,475
      CO: 5,467
      BTN: 12,370

      9 players post ante of 25, SB posts SB 125, BB posts BB 250

      Pre Flop: (pot: 600) Hero has :Kc: :Ks:

      Hero raises to 500, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, SB calls 375, BB calls 250

      Flop: (1,725, 3 players) :4c: :5d: :Ts:
      SB checks, BB bets 1,725, Hero raises to 4,955 and is all-in, SB calls 2,790 and is all-in, BB calls 3,230

      Turn: (14,425, 3 players) :9c:

      River: (14,425, 3 players) :Td:

      SB shows :4h: :4d: (Full House, Fours full of Tens)

      Main Pot [10,095]: (Pre 11%, Flop 78%, Turn 90%)

      BB shows :4s: :5s: (Two Pair, Tens and Fives)

      Main Pot [10,095]: (Pre 16%, Flop 13%, Turn 5%)
      Side Pot#1 [4,330]: (Pre 19%, Flop 73%, Turn 81%)

      Hero shows :Kc: :Ks: (Two Pair, Kings and Tens)

      Main Pot [10,095]: (Pre 73%, Flop 10%, Turn 5%)
      Side Pot#1 [4,330]: (Pre 81%, Flop 27%, Turn 19%)

      SB wins 10,095
      Hero wins 4,330

      Without winning another hand, I still collected a ticket -- There was no need to play this hand! I came within a hair of losing the tournament! (the rebuy period was over)

      Cheers,
      VS
    • lovi4nina
      lovi4nina
      Silver
      Joined: 01.10.2018 Posts: 17
      i will start keeping tabs on the progress and study more.. thanks
    • lovi4nina
      lovi4nina
      Silver
      Joined: 01.10.2018 Posts: 17
      in my case the opponent was trying to steal the blinds with 42o but eventually got a straight on the flop, another similar situation 46 and the opponent got three of a kind 6, those are the most recent, which left me wondering, if it is actually real or he saw what was going to happen, i've seen it happen to others too. then i started hearing things like bots actually exists, the same article still said that bots can only help you when to call, raise, shove, fold etc.. but they can't predict the outcome of the cards. is that true? or is it that my opponent just got lucky?
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 11,392
      Hi lovi4nina,
      One of the factors is stack size. In a tournament, you might end up on the button with a stack size of 1BB for example. If antes are involved, the pot is already the same size as your stack.

      If no-one opens ahead of you, it is proper to shove -- you have a 100% chance of losing the ante (and the pot) if you fold. If you shove, you have a greater than zero chance of winning the pot.

      You see the situation like this:

             Equity     Win     Tie
      BU     20.69%  19.28%   1.42% { 42o }
      SB     39.65%  37.75%   1.90% { random }
      BB     39.66%  37.76%   1.90% { random }


      Let's assume that SB has AA.
      SB re-shoves, to induce BB to fold. (not really the best use of AA here, but lets ignore that for the moment)
      SB sees the situation like this:

             Equity     Win     Tie
      BU     13.23%  12.98%   0.25% { 42o }
      SB     86.77%  86.52%   0.25% { AA }


      Almost 13 times out of a hundred, AA loses.
      So yeah, your opponent got lucky :s_cry:

      Although bots do exist, they cannot yet predict the next cards.
      However, they can calculate the equities as I just did.

      At least once in the past month, I folded something like 72o as a very short stack and would have ended up winning the hand.

      BTW, the equity calculations were done with the free tool Equilab -- quite useful for answering the question: "Oh crap, did I just screw up on that last hand?"

      All the best,
      VS
    • Miszkiel
      Miszkiel
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.10.2009 Posts: 7
      I prefer to get in the money but it depends on How high your stack is!
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 11,392
      Earlier today -- with about 20 left to go before the bubble burst, I was in BB w/ :Ah: :8h:
      There were a lot of really short stacks -- I can't remember how many.

      SB covered me by a ton -- he shoved.
      I let the entire time bank disappear, then called on the last second.

      He showed :Qc: :3c:
      He rivered a Q

      I finished two off the money.
      It was a freeroll, but but still.

      <sigh>
      VS
    • OldSchoolPapa
      OldSchoolPapa
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.10.2010 Posts: 463
      I think it's an interesting question but the answer is never obvious. It depends of the game format you play , your situation in the tournament (yours and your opponent stacksize, your position in the tournament), your reads but also and more important your own goal as a poker player. If you play to try to reach the 1st place with a higher risk/reward ratio in mind then you should definitely call no matter the stack size but if you are low in cash and need to make it ITM assuming your stack allows you to survive until the bubble burst then fold and play with the time bank until you make it. If you more a math/logical player then stick to ICM and play accordingly. I don't believe in perfect answers you can apply to everything.

      Best of Skills & Luck @ Tables,
      OldSchoolPapa.
    • SDK1987
      SDK1987
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 12.11.2008 Posts: 39,560
      Originally posted by VorpalF2F
      I thought of this thread as I played this hand
      We're about 20 away from the money -- the money in this case is the top 80 players get a ticket to a $5.50 tournament. I won the ticket into this tournament, and I've made two $0.50 rebuys at this point.

      I'm in about 60th place, 80 get paid, and there are a hundred still in

      888 Poker - 125/250 Ante 25 NL - Holdem - 9 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

      SB: 3,315
      BB: 14,698
      Hero (UTG): 5,480
      UTG+1: 2,975
      MP: 3,005
      MP+1: 2,950
      MP+2: 3,475
      CO: 5,467
      BTN: 12,370

      9 players post ante of 25, SB posts SB 125, BB posts BB 250

      Pre Flop: (pot: 600) Hero has :Kc: :Ks:

      Hero raises to 500, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, SB calls 375, BB calls 250

      Flop: (1,725, 3 players) :4c: :5d: :Ts:
      SB checks, BB bets 1,725, Hero raises to 4,955 and is all-in, SB calls 2,790 and is all-in, BB calls 3,230

      Turn: (14,425, 3 players) :9c:

      River: (14,425, 3 players) :Td:

      SB shows :4h: :4d: (Full House, Fours full of Tens)

      Main Pot [10,095]: (Pre 11%, Flop 78%, Turn 90%)

      BB shows :4s: :5s: (Two Pair, Tens and Fives)

      Main Pot [10,095]: (Pre 16%, Flop 13%, Turn 5%)
      Side Pot#1 [4,330]: (Pre 19%, Flop 73%, Turn 81%)

      Hero shows :Kc: :Ks: (Two Pair, Kings and Tens)

      Main Pot [10,095]: (Pre 73%, Flop 10%, Turn 5%)
      Side Pot#1 [4,330]: (Pre 81%, Flop 27%, Turn 19%)

      SB wins 10,095
      Hero wins 4,330

      Without winning another hand, I still collected a ticket -- There was no need to play this hand! I came within a hair of losing the tournament! (the rebuy period was over)

      Cheers,
      VS
      This is a hand you could consider to fold the flop after his pot size bet against 2 players when you are safe to get a ticket, but fold pre-flop seems tight.
    • CucumbaMan
      CucumbaMan
      Silver
      Joined: 13.10.2017 Posts: 312
      It is basically just variance, you cannot believe that there are players who can predict what cards will come. At least I hope so, because if there are people who can actually predict that, we should never play this game, right?

      Variance can hit you real hard, I bubbled tournaments with AA, yesterday my KK was cracked by 47s. It just happens. So work on your game and do not give up, the results will come! :f_drink:
    • ghaleon
      ghaleon
      Black
      Joined: 17.10.2007 Posts: 6,269
      Well if we talk about mtt bubbles are not that huge of deal most of time. Sure if you have fallen into very short stack it actually becomes lot bigger deal to survive into moneys as even if you double your small stack it wont make chances of going deep that much bigger. But with deeper stack it will obviously suck if bubbling but there is also lot more reward in building stack further. That is simply because min cashes especially in bigger field mtt are so minuscule amount compared to what is distributed in FT that ICM tax is low. So in such situation you probably should not consider folding KK preflop.

      But if we have heavy ICM effect because of price pool like in DoN or satellite then open folding AA can be optimal. If we are in situation where we get ITM very likely additional chips simply have close to no value and ones lost have lot.

      Then there can be bit more special situations like e.g. even in 6max sng where ICM is not absurdly high. E.g. lets say we have this situation in 65/35 price structure:

      BU: 10bb
      SB: 10bb
      BB, hero: 3bb

      Hero has AA. BU shove, SB call, hero? Do we call?

      Nash ranges are following: BU shove 32.3%, 22+ Ax K4s+ K7o+ Q8s+ QTo+ J9s+ T9s, SB call 1.4%, QQ+, BB overcall 0.0%

      Funnily overcalling AA would be like -4% of price pool. This is simply because by folding we get into money if there is no split pot. If we call we need to win 3way pot to get into 9bb stack versus likely 14bb stack. So our chances of win will go up but AA versus two villains will lose too often. Now this sample is bit extreme because we assume both villains to have exact stacks. If there is even small difference it might end up in situation where other is not out and happens to win several pots when forced allin later so calling AA would get better. But if SB is one being bit bigger then even that AA can be marginal.

      If we take same situation and change it into us having 900 so almost same stack and BB shoving 31.5%, 22+ Ax K2s+ KTo+ Q8s+ QTo+ J8s+ JTo T9s, SB calling 5.4%, 99+ AJs+ AQo+ then we could call with AA that being very profitable, +3% But on other hand KK will be heavily -EV, -6%

      I actually had sort of similar spot sometime ago where in sng bubble I minraise induced with QQ having 12bb, SB shoves 20bb and BB calling with tiny bit bigger stack. My thought process was like:

      - "Oh nice hand to induce, please some action now!"
      - SB shoves 20bb
      - "Great snaaap calling"
      - BB shoves 20.xbb
      - "Wow this got wild...!"
      - Checking stack depths
      - "Well I suppose I have to fold..."
      - Folds QQ after some sadness
      - SB shows 99, BB shows AK and wins.
      - Let HU begin

      Now I checked hand later with exact situation as I was wondering what to do with KK. But it turned out to be that even AA would have been marginal. Would not have folded it in game and not sure of my decision with KK.
    • DSharkP
      DSharkP
      Silver
      Joined: 16.09.2012 Posts: 348
      KK insta call, unless it's the bubble and 5 people are all all in lol or FT, pay jump is huge and there's 7 players all In
    • StrategyLofthouse
      StrategyLofthouse
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.01.2011 Posts: 49
      Originally posted by lovi4nina
      in my case the opponent was trying to steal the blinds with 42o but eventually got a straight on the flop, another similar situation 46 and the opponent got three of a kind 6, those are the most recent, which left me wondering, if it is actually real or he saw what was going to happen, i've seen it happen to others too. then i started hearing things like bots actually exists, the same article still said that bots can only help you when to call, raise, shove, fold etc.. but they can't predict the outcome of the cards. is that true? or is it that my opponent just got lucky?
      Do not allow previous situations when your KK have been beat to affect your future decisions. You were all in as the favorite to win the hand, so you made the correct decision.
      Continue to make the correct decisions.

      There is no such thing as a bot that can predict the outcome of the cards.
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