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[NL2] Zoom KK

    • zetozinho
      zetozinho
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.06.2017 Posts: 292


      A hand I played against a 16/10, with 12 AF, 250 hands
      PF and OTF standard imo. His raise could mean nothing, due to his 12 AF.
      Turn I was pot commited, getting 3:1 so I called.
      Ideas?
  • 29 replies
    • MyFloXyBabY
      MyFloXyBabY
      Platinum
      Joined: 15.02.2010 Posts: 3,216
      a 16/10 cold calling a 3bet OOP is meaning business. His x/r on T2Tt too.
      I wouldn't be surprised if he had QQ here even with the removal.
      Impossible to fold though, the question for me is rather would it be better to repop OTF or to wait OTT.
    • zetozinho
      zetozinho
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.06.2017 Posts: 292
      That's the thing floxy.
      Push OTF or call?
      Im ahead of QQ, JJ.
      Does he call OOP a 3 bet with AT? I dont think so.
      I dont think I can fold this.
    • CptJokerFish
      CptJokerFish
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2017 Posts: 992
      Bet flop 1/3 Pot. Call Flop raise and fold vs. his turn bet.
      The average Villain on micro stakes is not bluffing enough.
      Think about his flop raising range and then think about his turn continue range.
      Take also his preflop stats into Account you play vs. a 16/10 nit.

      To determine if someone is postflop aggressive take these stats:
      AFQ-Flop Turn and River, WWSF, WTSD
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Gold
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 7,181
      really don't see what you beat once the Q comes tbh
    • nitrol
      nitrol
      Silver
      Joined: 24.07.2010 Posts: 12,108
      Originally posted by CptJokerFish
      Bet flop 1/3 Pot. Call Flop raise and fold vs. his turn bet.
      The average Villain on micro stakes is not bluffing enough.
      Think about his flop raising range and then think about his turn continue range.
      Take also his preflop stats into Account you play vs. a 16/10 nit.

      To determine if someone is postflop aggressive take these stats:
      AFQ-Flop Turn and River, WWSF, WTSD
      Why call the flop raise if you are to fold on turn?
    • sdf256
      sdf256
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.07.2016 Posts: 199
      Fold OTF imo in 3bet pot.
    • MyFloXyBabY
      MyFloXyBabY
      Platinum
      Joined: 15.02.2010 Posts: 3,216
      Originally posted by nitrol
      Why call the flop raise if you are to fold on turn?
      Because the turn isn't always a Q ;)
    • CucumbaMan
      CucumbaMan
      Silver
      Joined: 13.10.2017 Posts: 314
      Tough spot for sure, but I agree with the guys, that you should fold turn. Opponent called preflop, check-raised flop and pot bet turn.
    • la55i
      la55i
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 8,489
      I agree with the guys above. Just wanted to point out that in 250 hands the AF stat or any other postflop stat are not that accurate.

      Originally posted by nitrol
      Why call the flop raise if you are to fold on turn?
      About this I have talked about in my videos. And imo that is one of the most stupid thought processes. Just like MyFloXyBabY pointed out, the hand will not play out like this every single time.
    • nitrol
      nitrol
      Silver
      Joined: 24.07.2010 Posts: 12,108
      Originally posted by MyFloXyBabY
      Originally posted by nitrol
      Why call the flop raise if you are to fold on turn?
      Because the turn isn't always a Q ;)
      What does the Q change? What will you do with the 51bb left behind?
    • MyFloXyBabY
      MyFloXyBabY
      Platinum
      Joined: 15.02.2010 Posts: 3,216
      I said at the begin that I wouldn't fold the turn, but I understand where those who do come from, the Q is not a good card.
      When that kind of nit is x/ring you in a 3bet pot, what can he have that doesn't beat you ? You are hoping for him to get JJ-QQ and diamond broadways.
      On that Q turn QQ is now ahead, JJ is less likely to barrel and diamond broadways have now more outs (DP or GS). Not the best situation.
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Gold
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 7,181
      a call is basically hoping that villain is really dumb. it's actually not that unlikely, so you might well go for it
    • greatpk
      greatpk
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.05.2016 Posts: 91
      Calling flop is a bad idea, Villain could have Ax of diamonds that he raise OTF, AA, QQ JJ AK AQ sometimes as well.
      If villain has QQ, JJ there are some scare cards that will prevent him from leading turn, like for example A or any diamond. It is a scare card for you as well so it kills action from QQ JJ. Diamond draws gain fold equity when you just call and can put you in a tough spot, or check fold OTT.
      I think the best way to play out the hand is to go all in over his reraise. You extract value from QQ, some times JJ, some diamond draws. You loose vs AA, which is unlikely cause he didnt 4bet you, but we cant exclude AA from his range tho.
      Calling here makes you pot commited anyways, so you probobly still have to call any type of a turn. So fold is no longer an option after calling flop.
      I think you made it to complicated. Only 10x type of a hand i can think of is pocket 10s.
      Just ship it next time on similar spots
    • nitrol
      nitrol
      Silver
      Joined: 24.07.2010 Posts: 12,108
      Originally posted by la55i
      I agree with the guys above. Just wanted to point out that in 250 hands the AF stat or any other postflop stat are not that accurate.

      Originally posted by nitrol
      Why call the flop raise if you are to fold on turn?
      About this I have talked about in my videos. And imo that is one of the most stupid thought processes. Just like MyFloXyBabY pointed out, the hand will not play out like this every single time.
      For me, it is stupid to put villain on QQ only... As the hand plays out, it is just 1 combo...
      Why do you call the raise on flop and then advocate a fold on turn with just 51bb left... You say that a T+ card or diamond on turn is bad for us and we should fold?
    • reggie123
      reggie123
      Silver
      Joined: 31.03.2009 Posts: 379
      Shove flop. Dont make it hard when it can be simple.
    • MyFloXyBabY
      MyFloXyBabY
      Platinum
      Joined: 15.02.2010 Posts: 3,216
      Nobody has "put villain on QQ only". And as we are talking on the turn, it's not only one combo but three. Disagree all you want with everyone but at least be fair about it please.

      Anyway I prefer shoving flop indeed.
    • nitrol
      nitrol
      Silver
      Joined: 24.07.2010 Posts: 12,108
      I am fair and that is the reason why I try to get as much info on the hand. I am not the kind of person who believes on everything la55i says just because he says it... And if you have brains you would do so too. In discussion the truth is born, you know...
      I do not get why you will call the raise and then fold vs the turn bet with an overpair for 51bb.

      In fact I had a similar hand today and villain took the initiative and showed 99! Obviously he put me on AK...
    • MyFloXyBabY
      MyFloXyBabY
      Platinum
      Joined: 15.02.2010 Posts: 3,216
      You are so unfair you're now accusing me of being la55i's dog. At least he'll have a good laugh about it :D

      I have at least enough brains to distinguish different spots, thank you very much, as opposed to you who talk about another spot with another villain on another flop and maybe even other positions. You don't seem to get much about poker so I'll stop trying to explain things to you, and I bet I won't be the only one.

      Brainlessly yours ;)
    • MLima1984
      MLima1984
      Silver
      Joined: 19.05.2015 Posts: 82
      The villain's high AF would make me go all the way, but its and awfull board and usually all that post flop agression would make me fold otf.

      Btw the push OTF, that u guys mension, is due to the AF?
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