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Help - Stuck in 25NL (winner at 10NL)

    • E5555
      E5555
      Gold
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 62
      Hello community,

      I'm frustrated I've been playing for years (years) and constantly studying (books, videos of sites, review of my own hands), even for periods at full time, with profits but nothing great.
      Before I played FR and now I play 6max, but in both formats the same thing has happened to me, I easily and consistently win 10NL but in 25NL I am a roller coaster, I can not win in a clear and consistent way.

      Recent sample last 2 months HEM2 (frustration to the maximum after losing 12 BI, 8 BI EV adj, in the last 12k hands of 25NL)
      10NL - 51k hands - + $ 314 (+ $ 496 EV adj) - VPIP 22 - PFR 18 - 3B 8.5 - 2.86 Agg - WTSD 25 - W $ SD 50.9 - W $ WSF 49.3 - bb / 100 6.10
      25NL - 66k hands - + $ 127 (+ $ 52 EV adj) - VPIP 22 - PFR 18 - 3B 8.5 - 3.31 Agg - WTSD 24 - W $ SD 49.9 - W $ WSF 46.4 - bb / 100 0.76

      Total sample last year played HEM2
      10NL - 197k hands - + $ 1015 (+ $ 1296 EV adj) - VPIP 20 - PFR 16 - 3B 6.1 - 2.28 Agg - WTSD 23.9 - W $ SD 52.1 - W $ WSF 47 - bb / 100 5.15
      25NL - 163k hands - + $ 53 (- $ 81 EV adj) - VPIP 20 - PFR 16 - 3B 6.2 - 3.18 Agg - WTSD 23.3 - W $ SD 50.9 - W $ WSF 45.8 - bb / 100 0.13

      *no rakeback included (but in today PS programs are very insignificant)

      I am aware that my samples are somewhat small (I am currently trying to put + 50k hands per month), possible downs and etc but it is that in total I have been with this situation for over a year now

      In August I earn almost $ 600 in about 63k hands of 10NL & 25NL (the gains are about 50% in each level), in September I played less xq I studied much more (that's why the difference in the evolution of my most recent stats with respect to the before) and earn about $ 250 in approx 42k hands of 25NL

      I am very grateful for any advice or criticism, however painful it may be, I hope to find people who have overcome something similar or who can give me an external point of view that may be happening.

      Greetings and thanks in advance for your time
  • 9 replies
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Gold
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 7,181
      no surprise there: nl25 is very hard compared to nl10. these stats don't say much, you should probably look into your positional winrates to try to isolate the "problem" further.
      the one thing that jumps out from these stats is that the correlation between WTSD and W$SD seems low. i play a bit looser than you and have 26 WTSD with 54 W$SD in my stars zoom nl16 sample, may or may not indicate some problems with hand reading.
    • MyFloXyBabY
      MyFloXyBabY
      Platinum
      Joined: 15.02.2010 Posts: 3,207
      Am I the only one findin NL25 easier than NL10 then ? :]
      (But I'm not playing on the .com also.)

      NL25 is more agro, you are probably being bluffed too much, your WTSD surprised me too. I play loser too and I might be a bit of a CS on some spots so not the best example anyway.
      Maybe you are playing too tag the old school way, not enough defending your checks etc.
      They are fighting for small pots and attacking weaknesses way more. Having some GTO-like basis and some trapish playstyle really helps there.
      Your 3bet stat could be a little higher and I don't know about your 4bet one.
    • Pokamon
      Pokamon
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.04.2006 Posts: 536
      you know, there is not much to say about the five stats you have posted. you will have to look at a lot more than that. Tomaloc has already the positional stuff, but you should also check the barreling, raising and folding frequencies.

      the increased level of aggression is reflected very nicely in your W$WSF. so when you play the same game w/o adjusting this is what you get.
    • E5555
      E5555
      Gold
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 62
      Originally posted by Tomaloc
      no surprise there: nl25 is very hard compared to nl10. these stats don't say much, you should probably look into your positional winrates to try to isolate the "problem" further.
      the one thing that jumps out from these stats is that the correlation between WTSD and W$SD seems low. i play a bit looser than you and have 26 WTSD with 54 W$SD in my stars zoom nl16 sample, may or may not indicate some problems with hand reading.
      Originally posted by MyFloXyBabY
      Am I the only one findin NL25 easier than NL10 then ? :]
      (But I'm not playing on the .com also.)

      NL25 is more agro, you are probably being bluffed too much, your WTSD surprised me too. I play loser too and I might be a bit of a CS on some spots so not the best example anyway.
      Maybe you are playing too tag the old school way, not enough defending your checks etc.
      They are fighting for small pots and attacking weaknesses way more. Having some GTO-like basis and some trapish playstyle really helps there.
      Your 3bet stat could be a little higher and I don't know about your 4bet one.
      Originally posted by Pokamon
      you know, there is not much to say about the five stats you have posted. you will have to look at a lot more than that. Tomaloc has already the positional stuff, but you should also check the barreling, raising and folding frequencies.

      the increased level of aggression is reflected very nicely in your W$WSF. so when you play the same game w/o adjusting this is what you get.
      Thanks a lot for your comments, after reading reading/hearing several opinions and analyzing my own game, I think I'm giving a lot of credit on the river, which in 10NL is usually inclined a lot to value, and apparently it would not be like that at 25NL.

      Other 25NL 6max recent stats for further analysis
      vs 3b fold 61.60
      vs 4b fold 61.62
      4b 8.19
      Agg% 45.23 - (10NL 43.91)
      Flop CB 89.30 - Turn CB 53.39 - River CB 48.58
      Flop Fold vs CB 51.50 - Turn Fold vs CB 42.29 - River Fold vs CB 57.83 (10NL 56.47)

      WR bb/100 by position 25NL 6max
      SB -24.40 / BB -37.66 / EP 24.64 / MP 10.14 / CO 12.01 / BTN 30.32
      (10 NL) SB -26.47 / BB -24.36 / EP 12.75 / MP 27.63 / CO 28.32 / BTN 23.54

      Also came to the conclusion that my game selection (in terms of schedule), even though isn't the worst, it isn't the best, because I am used to beat 10NL at any time that it didn't make too much difference for me in that level to look for the best schedules, do you guys got any recommendations in that matter? I supposed weekends and some window of time in regular days

      Any further comments would also be really appreciated, thanks again and hope you guys have a great day.
    • Pokamon
      Pokamon
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.04.2006 Posts: 536
      Flop CB 89.30 - Turn CB 53.39 - River CB 48.58
      betting so much on flop and turn, leaves you w a very weak range OTR. something like 55,55,55 is better.
      also i highly doubt, that your flop strategy is still working.

      Flop Fold vs CB 51.50 - Turn Fold vs CB 42.29 - River Fold vs CB 57.83 (10NL 56.47)
      you are overfolding on each and every street. so villains could close their eyes, play bet, bet, bet and show a profit.

      WR bb/100 by position 25NL 6max
      SB -24.40 / BB -37.66 / EP 24.64 / MP 10.14 / CO 12.01 / BTN 30.32
      (10 NL) SB -26.47 / BB -24.36 / EP 12.75 / MP 27.63 / CO 28.32 / BTN 23.54
      positional WRs converge after 100k hands+ for each position. so those numbers dont reveal anything.

      you should better post positional preflop stats. frequencies. that kind of stuff.
    • E5555
      E5555
      Gold
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 62
      Originally posted by Pokamon
      Flop CB 89.30 - Turn CB 53.39 - River CB 48.58
      betting so much on flop and turn, leaves you w a very weak range OTR. something like 55,55,55 is better.
      also i highly doubt, that your flop strategy is still working.

      Flop Fold vs CB 51.50 - Turn Fold vs CB 42.29 - River Fold vs CB 57.83 (10NL 56.47)
      you are overfolding on each and every street. so villains could close their eyes, play bet, bet, bet and show a profit.

      WR bb/100 by position 25NL 6max
      SB -24.40 / BB -37.66 / EP 24.64 / MP 10.14 / CO 12.01 / BTN 30.32
      (10 NL) SB -26.47 / BB -24.36 / EP 12.75 / MP 27.63 / CO 28.32 / BTN 23.54
      positional WRs converge after 100k hands+ for each position. so those numbers dont reveal anything.

      you should better post positional preflop stats. frequencies. that kind of stuff.
      Thank you very much for your input, what folding vs CB numbers would you recommend?
      I thought my flop and turn numbers weren't that bad/exploitable
    • la55i
      la55i
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 8,489
      Originally posted by E5555
      Thank you very much for your input, what folding vs CB numbers would you recommend?
      I thought my flop and turn numbers weren't that bad/exploitable
      Flop about 40% or lower. OTT even lower than that.
      Over 50% fold to cbet starts to get close to a point where villain should just cbet any 2 cards.

      I also agree on what was said about the huge cbetting%. The problem is also that you are then cbetting a lot out of position, which suck. Villains float you and OTT you must always just check fold. Keeping a bit stronger checking range OOP will make your game stronger and easier.
    • E5555
      E5555
      Gold
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 62
      Originally posted by la55i
      Flop about 40% or lower. OTT even lower than that.
      Over 50% fold to cbet starts to get close to a point where villain should just cbet any 2 cards.

      I also agree on what was said about the huge cbetting%. The problem is also that you are then cbetting a lot out of position, which suck. Villains float you and OTT you must always just check fold. Keeping a bit stronger checking range OOP will make your game stronger and easier.
      Thank you very much for your input! Definitely gonna try to adjust my game to those numbers
    • la55i
      la55i
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 8,489
      Also, keep in mind that good looking stats are a by-product of good play. So if you are now folding too much and you want to reduce your fold to cbet by 10% for example, don't just start calling more randomly. Instead you should read some articles and watch some coaching videos so you will learn what to do and why. When you call with hands that you know you should be calling with, your fold to cbet should get a lot better automatically.