Question about SSS cbet.

    • Smileyphil
      Smileyphil
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.10.2008 Posts: 488
      Ok just been thinking about the maths of a cbet and wondering how it applies when we are forced to push all-in.

      Say we have a situation where we see the flop. The pot is $3 and we have a remaining stack of $3. (Numbers just for ease of calculation).

      Now a standard cbet would be roughly 1/2 to 2/3 of the pot meaning that our villain only has to fold 33%/40% of the time however because we are forced to push all in instead the villain actually has to fold his hand a higher percentage of the time?

      If we are forced to do this is it better to leave off the cbet completely or do we still push despite ruining the odds that make a cbet work?
  • 12 replies
    • PidKoker
      PidKoker
      Global
      Joined: 03.06.2008 Posts: 416
      Normally you should just push all-in as long as you are in a HU situation because if you were only to push your made hands then people could pick up on this (doesnt apply that much to micro stakes). You want to keep a balanced image and if you dont cbet you also miss out on taking the pot down without a showdown.
    • Smileyphil
      Smileyphil
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.10.2008 Posts: 488
      Sorry more info: I am play NL25 usually. I think a few people watch enough for balancing lines but most just call/fold depending on if they hit. (Or if they believe they have a 'read')

      Edit: And I mean HU only. I very rarely cbet more than one opponent.
    • kukkiwonBG
      kukkiwonBG
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.07.2008 Posts: 4,494
      It's not about ballance, sorry PidKoker :baby:
      You can ballance with every kind of bet if you are doing it with every hand...

      The reason is that if you bet 1/2 and have only 1/2 left and the guys shove you need to call with any two, because the odds will be 1 (pot) + 1/2 (your bet) + 1/2 (his call) + 1/2 (his bet) to 1/2 (your remaining stack) so you need 17% equaty with the quality of your statring hands you can not fold for those odds on any flop (probably vs. some opponent you can, but here is the balancing part)

      And if he only calls you still can fold to a turn bet....

      Best regards,
      Kukki
    • RavForenzo
      RavForenzo
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2008 Posts: 293
      i think if you are playing really low stakes you are probably giving players waaaay too much credit if you think they're going to be taking into account pot odds. :)
    • Smileyphil
      Smileyphil
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.10.2008 Posts: 488
      We don't think they are thinking about pot odds. But we definitely are!

      My real question is that the idea of a cbet is based on the fact that when it is called or raised we have only lost half a potsized bet?

      Say for example:
      The pot is $3. We have AQo. The board is 7d 3s Kc.
      If we have a large stack left behind then our standard cbet is $1.50.

      This gives us:
      EV(cbet) = +$3x0.66 - $4.50x0.33 = +$0.5

      But if we have a stack of $3 left then we are told to push instead which means:
      EV(cbet) = +$3x0.66 - $6x0.33 = $0

      If we push anymore than the size of the pot then we lose money?

      Assumptions:
      We assume the opponent makes a pair 33% of the time. So the P(call/raise) on our cbet is 0.33 and the P(fold) = 0.66.
    • kukkiwonBG
      kukkiwonBG
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.07.2008 Posts: 4,494
      Again. If you have only $3 left in $3 pot if you cbet, no matter how much, you will have at least 5 to 1 (1,5 from you, 3 pot, 3 from him) so you are commited.
      And thus you are shoving for max FE and max value if called when you have a good hand.

      Kukki
    • kukkiwonBG
      kukkiwonBG
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.07.2008 Posts: 4,494
      Example:

      You have AKo and raise, the BB calls and the board is QT2r.
      The pot is $4 and you have left $5. Cbet 3 and the villain shoves.
      You need to call 2 to win 12 so 2/14 = 0.143% break evem equity. (without rake)

      equity win tie pots won pots tied
      Hand 0: 81.111% 81.11% 00.00% 803 0.00 { QhTc }
      Hand 1: 18.889% 18.89% 00.00% 187 0.00 { AhKd }

      So even vs. top two you need to call.
      And he may have one pair, underpair even a SD.

      Even vs. top set you are almost good.

      Best
    • Smileyphil
      Smileyphil
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.10.2008 Posts: 488
      Thank you I think I see how it works now.

      Basically:
      We would have to call if they raised. So we might as well push straight away instead and therefore increase our fold equity (if we're lucky the large bet may make them throw away a few hands that are ahead)?

      So continuing the theme if the pot is $2 and we have $4 left.

      A cbet of $1 (we don't push by the rules as 2 x $1 is less than our stack)
      If we are raised all in we are ok to throw away the hand?

      Our pot odds = $3/$12 = 25%

      So with overcards (6 outs - 4 discounted?) = 17% we have an easy fold.
      With gutshot (4 outs) = 0.17% we have an easy fold.
      But with any strong draw (flush, OESD) (8/9 outs) = 33% we can call.

      I believe a strategy article on this may be worthwhile - I will at least investigate it for myself as I believe I have a major leak in my game when it comes to cbets with the SSS. It is an important part because it could make the difference between a major leak (if you are folding when you should call) or a minor leak (calling when we should fold - usually have outs) and actual good practice.
    • kukkiwonBG
      kukkiwonBG
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.07.2008 Posts: 4,494
      First of all you need to start playing with stats if you are not.
      Then it is easy to know vs. what opponents on what boards what cbets you need to make. Of course you need a lot of experince for this, but you need to start some day. Best day is today. :P

      Some examples:

      If the board come three low cards and you are in position.
      If you have a semi-strong draw or just two overcards you can check behind to catch you draw on the turn. Of course vs some opponents you can balance it whit big pairs to give them opportunity to bluff you.

      On an A high board you may cbet all the time. Because you want when you have the A to get some action.

      You have 99 and the board comes KJT two tone. It is probably better to check and probably give up to action.

      So ask question, post hands, play a lot and nothing can stop you.

      Kukki
    • Smileyphil
      Smileyphil
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.10.2008 Posts: 488
      Thanks for the help kukkiwon.

      I'm quiet enjoying playing the SSS. I always wonder why people seem to think its boring. :P

      Plus I just got some stats running. I have them on a pop-up strictly for cbets but what stats should I consider most?

      I have generally just been looking at fold to cbet (obviously) but sometimes my sample is pretty small on this.
    • kukkiwonBG
      kukkiwonBG
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.07.2008 Posts: 4,494
      Start mining or buy hands for you limit....
    • kukkiwonBG
      kukkiwonBG
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.07.2008 Posts: 4,494
      or...
      Write what limit do you play and on which site and someone here can give you if they have :tongue: