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BU defend Vs blinds 3bet

    • AvritJack
      AvritJack
      Gold
      Joined: 28.12.2007 Posts: 365
      Hi. I would like to create defending range vs 3bet.
      I would probably include 4bet range there but I don't have much experience.
      My or is around 41 percents and I would like to defend about 20.
      I have put this range to equilab and it's too loose for me.
      Is it ok to defend 17-18 percent?
      Im also not sure about 4 bet bluff. My 4bet value set to JJ+ AKo AKs. I'm not sure about JJ. What do you think? Maybe it's better to call it?
      What hands would you recommend to 4bet bluff? Is A2s-A5s ok? I'm wondering because they play good so maybe it's better to have them in calling range?
      AJo? KJo? Even KQo? I think I could dominate opponents range with those hands. Maybe not KJ.
      I think similar situation will be on SB but I don't have or range, I think it will be around 38 percents.
      Do you think 4bet value JJ AKo aks will be ok? What about 4bet bluffs? I will be oop so maybe kqo? ATo? A2s-A5s.
      Like I said before, I don't have much experience so your recommendation will be very helpful. I don't want to copy and paste ranges. I just pleased for clues.
      Thank you.

      Ps. Do you think 4bet value QQ on the mp is profitable this days? It's really difficult to get valuable statistics so I would like focused on my range for now.
  • 17 replies
    • mkjmkjmkj
      mkjmkjmkj
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.02.2012 Posts: 161
      you should defend what you think you can defend profitably not neceserily a specific percentages
      from the BU i would call suitet aces AJ KQ and often also KJ. what hands to 4bet value and bluffs also depends on if villain is calling 4bets. if villain isnt calling 4bets it doesent matter much what hands you 4bet bluff and if he is calling 4bets AQ might be a good hand to 4bet for value.

      and you should adjust your OR and defending ranges depending on opponent.
    • AvritJack
      AvritJack
      Gold
      Joined: 28.12.2007 Posts: 365
      Thanks for reply.
      It's difficult to adjust my opponents on zoom for example. Im playing there couple weeks and still dont have realiable statistics espacially 4bet which need huuuge ammount of hands.
      I would like focus on my ranges to be honest first.
      Im just building my strategies and all I want to ask you is how hands, which I told you, are working on specific action.
      I mean is it better to 4bet bluff A2s-A5s or have it in calling range?
      If I call I have position advantage. I can realized my equity 100%, play well (hope so). I can hit nut fd. I can hit well hidden gutshot draws. Only domination will be disadvantage there I think. Overall I think call is better.
      I was thinking to add top of folding range to my 4bet bluff so If I want call them cant 4bet bluff them anymore.
      I dont really want to call hands like K9s, Q9s, J9s but if they are good to 4bet? Maybe I should switch them to come lower 1 gapper connectors like 86s, 97s, 75s. If I will be called I could let them go easly if I dont hit something strong.
      Offsuited hands are easier a little bit. ATo, KJo, maybe QJo? I could add KQo or AJo but I'm not sure if they arent too strong to 4bet/bluff and should call them only.
      Still I dont have enough combinations to balance my 4bet range...
      I was trying to search my database and after 15k hands I didnt have ANY A2s-A5s open raise from BU and faced against 3bet from blinds. I dont know how I will play it thats why Im asking you for help please.
      I understand that is individual but really like to hear what you think.

      This is my calling range against blinds 3bet:
      TT-22,AQo-AJo,AQs-A2s,KQs-KTs,QJs-QTs,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s

      4bet value: AA-JJ,AKo,AKs

      4bet bluff: ATo,KQo-KJo,K9s,Q9s,J9s
    • MyFloXyBabY
      MyFloXyBabY
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2010 Posts: 4,475
      You can call way more hands, like more SC and one gappers.

      I don't like your 4bet bluffing range as it's made of hands playable as a call. They are literally all in my 3bet calling range lol.

      Also JJ doesn't make a good 4bet for value in my opinion.

      You may 4bet low suited aces and call it a day, or you may have a mixed strategy with them, or you even might want to call most of them but then you have to find other hands to bluff with like K7s-K6s or whatever.
      It shouldn't make that much difference as long as the field is bad (meaning they don't 3bet enough for you to need to agressively deny much equity with more 4bets and that they don't play OOP 3bet pots well so defending mainly as a call remains enough exploitatively speaking).


      QQ is often not a value 4betting hand from MP (but that can depend on the stakes and all of course).
    • AvritJack
      AvritJack
      Gold
      Joined: 28.12.2007 Posts: 365
      Thanks Floxy. Your opinion is very helpful. I'm going to increase my calling range (but not too much) and think about 4bet bluff and also remove JJ from value 4bet.
      I would like to ask you about offsuited calling and 4bet bluff range. Do you have any 4bet/bluff there or you are focused on suited hands more? You said that you calling all those hands which I have in my 4bet bluff range xD
      Is it ATo good to 4bet/bluff from BU and SB?


      I have come to the moment when 3bet/ all or I am entering 4bet vs BU.
      I admit that this range looks very loose. Even if I give myself 5% -6% for value.
      Such hands as AQo, KQs, ATs-AQs are the hands I can call with but is it not too loose?
      I still mean my range in a vacuum or vs unknown / standard player. Of course, in terms of the opponent I will rather narrow it ... :) It's hard for me to imagine expanding it, unless it really will be a loose player.
    • MyFloXyBabY
      MyFloXyBabY
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2010 Posts: 4,475
      In his last glorious biblical production of 2017, the Holy Prophet Matthew Janda proposes a 4betting range composed of JJ+, AK, K4s- and A4o-A5o.
      (He is flatting A2s+ and K5s+ , he comes from a 46% BU open and supposes BB 3bet quite a lot, and he specifies JJ can be called too if we prefer like I do)

      So the only offsuited hands here are A4o and A5o. They are hands we can't call with anyway so they make decent candidates, contrary to ATo that mostly feels a little too strong to turn into a bluff to me.
    • AvritJack
      AvritJack
      Gold
      Joined: 28.12.2007 Posts: 365
      Thanks.
      I can't find this production and this Matthew Janda.
      Anyway, I'm thinking now about SB 3bet vs other positions.
      For example if I 3bet vs EP 6% hands JJ-TT,AQo,AQs-AJs,KQs, 3% will be for value QQ+ AKo AKs
      but is that mean I should all in them vs 4bet from EP? I would probably prefer to call AK, maybe QQ. If I do that then I'm pretty face up what I calls and what I shoves. Maybe it's better to call 4bet with all that hands (QQ+, AK)? If so should I flat call to 4bet vs rest positions and quit all-in?
      I can't figure it out how to keep them balanced.
    • AthleticAZ
      AthleticAZ
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.09.2009 Posts: 125
      Originally posted by AvritJack
      I can't figure it out how to keep them balanced.
      Don't balance. Just play value ranges and skip BS bluffs. Get stats on your opponents, like folds vs 3bet, fold vs 4bet.

      If fold vs 3bet >60%, bluff more. If less, then 3bet QQ+, AK, f.e.
      If high 4bet then adjust and 3/5bet more stuff with equity.
      If high fold to 4bet, then 4bet any 2 without equity (or whatever).

      GTO sucks and I mean it. It will lose you money.


      EDIT: PS. To get better at it you should learn what is too much 4bet by %, f.e. Also for other stats. It is more important to understand, where opponent makes the biggest mistake. I haven't seen a balanced player in months to be honest.
    • MyFloXyBabY
      MyFloXyBabY
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2010 Posts: 4,475
      Thank you very much for the useless comment of the day AthleticAZ lol
      "Skip bluff but bluff when you can", "forget about balance but know when people aren't balanced",... pretty much the usual incoherent bullshit coming from people having a mental problem with Game Theory. You are just playing with words. Nobody's really playing exact GTO here anyway so it's not the point, you are blowing an open door.
    • AthleticAZ
      AthleticAZ
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.09.2009 Posts: 125
      Originally posted by MyFloXyBabY
      Thank you very much for the useless comment of the day AthleticAZ lol
      "Skip bluff but bluff when you can", "forget about balance but know when people aren't balanced",... pretty much the usual incoherent bullshit coming from people having a mental problem with Game Theory. You are just playing with words. Nobody's really playing exact GTO here anyway so it's not the point, you are blowing an open door.
      YES ... "forget about balance but know when people aren't balanced" ... THIS!
      Is there any problem with that?
    • MyFloXyBabY
      MyFloXyBabY
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2010 Posts: 4,475
      Yes there is, as it can be hard to know very well about something you're supposed to have dismissed before and completely forgotten. Duh. Just saying.
    • AthleticAZ
      AthleticAZ
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.09.2009 Posts: 125
      Ok, got it. I guess you meant, when I'm at the table and think "Hmmm, what was I supposed to do here?". Then at that point GTO might help, I guess.
    • sdf256
      sdf256
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.07.2016 Posts: 202
      I think what AthleticAZ meant by "forget about balance but know when people aren't balanced" was that YOU should not try to play perfectly balanced because the pool is inbalanced anyway, BUT when you know where they are inbalanced you can exploit it and make money that way.. so it's actually a good advice. But yeah you firstly gotta know what is the balance in order to find where the pool deviates from it.
    • AvritJack
      AvritJack
      Gold
      Joined: 28.12.2007 Posts: 365
      I would like to create some charts, basic, for standard players that can help me wider or narrow my ranges. I know it will be good for because I was using robmaf preflop charts with some modifications and I feel good with it. It's still only nl16. I don't how will be later. I would like to create my ranges, with some help of yours please guys.
      I'm playing nl for 3 weeks a think maybe month and it's difficult to learn everything especially if I have regular job.
      So please tell me do you know strategies how to react to IP 4bets when I'm 3betting from SB please. Standard. On unknown villain.
      I was thinking about value ranges:
      SB Vs utg or: AA kk QQ ako aks
      I'm not sure that is easy shove with ako. I mean if I call ako aks and shove QQ+ I will be very readable.
      SB Vs co or: JJ+ AQs or AKs , AKo
      Maybe it's better to flat call all this ranges Vs 4bet?
      I know that depends on villain etc but is there some strategies for that situations?

      Ps is that poker snowie teaches gto?
    • MyFloXyBabY
      MyFloXyBabY
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2010 Posts: 4,475
      Originally posted by sdf256
      I think what AthleticAZ meant by "forget about balance but know when people aren't balanced" was that YOU should not try to play perfectly balanced because the pool is inbalanced anyway, BUT when you know where they are inbalanced you can exploit it and make money that way.. so it's actually a good advice. But yeah you firstly gotta know what is the balance in order to find where the pool deviates from it.
      Sure. A good, hyper general and obvious advice that has nothing to do here and doesn't answer any of the thread's questions. We are so thankful for him (and you :P ).
      That's exactly what we need here. More people coming to debate GTO, balance or any other abstract non related topic they clearly don't master in order to imply at best stupid cliches instead of focusing on the concrete themes at hand.

      No Snowie doesn't teach GTO. No one can. Snowie teaches Snowie. GTO solvers (PIO Solver, GTO+, Monkersolver,...) can be more or less said to teach an aproximation of GT though.
      As Janda said anyway, "even with solvers and whatnot, it's still a toy game (compared to the real theoretical GTO solution)".
    • sdf256
      sdf256
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.07.2016 Posts: 202
      I know my post was obvious and very general. You quoted him out of context and I just tried to explain how I think he meant it because you probably misunderstood it (because as I said, I think he didn't mean to totally ignore the fact that there is a balance, I think he meant not to try to be perfectly balanced ( but yeah I ofc can't know how he really meant it so I'm just assuming)). And you stated that his post was useless. It clearly wasn't because the original poster said "I can't figure it out how to keep them balanced." He advised him not to try to have them balanced.. He gave him an advise on the topic he was asking for.. how is that useless?

      And to the original poster, here are my thoughts on some of your question:

      For example if I 3bet vs EP 6% hands JJ-TT,AQo,AQs-AJs,KQs, 3% will be for value QQ+ AKo AKs
      but is that mean I should all in them vs 4bet from EP?
      I wouldn't 5bet shove QQ/AK vs an EP 4bet.

      So please tell me do you know strategies how to react to IP 4bets when I'm 3betting from SB please. Standard. On unknown villain.
      I was thinking about value ranges:
      SB Vs utg or: AA kk QQ ako aks
      I'm not sure that is easy shove with ako. I mean if I call ako aks and shove QQ+ I will be very readable.
      SB Vs co or: JJ+ AQs or AKs , AKo
      Maybe it's better to flat call all this ranges Vs 4bet?
      I think vs UTG you will do just fine with shoving only KK+.
      Vs Co I think JJ+, AK is fine.
      No I wouldn't just flat them.. you wanna get it in :) .

      Hope I could help.
    • AvritJack
      AvritJack
      Gold
      Joined: 28.12.2007 Posts: 365
      A lot. Thanks.
      I read today article about AK how good to 5bet all in with it. Generates feq, blocking nuts. But I'm not sure is it well for utg. Range there contains probably not enough bluffs to be profitable 5bet all in.
    • MyFloXyBabY
      MyFloXyBabY
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2010 Posts: 4,475
      Originally posted by sdf256
      And you stated that his post was useless. It clearly wasn't because the original poster said "I can't figure it out how to keep them balanced." He advised him not to try to have them balanced.. He gave him an advise on the topic he was asking for.. how is that useless?
      Well then, so when teenagers ask about how to have sex, we should just tell them to stay virgins for life, problem solved ! :D
      Come on be real... it's so not the point ! He was just triggered by the use of the word "balanced" to do the usual useless ramble anti-GT that we've all read 100 times.

      Also shoving JJ vs CO seems optimistic to me at most stakes.