A question of going Full-Time

    • TheBu11d0g
      TheBu11d0g
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.07.2008 Posts: 2,019
      Hello everyone,

      I have been going over an idea in my head for the last few days and i was wondering if/hoping i can get some advice here.

      After being laid off in February and the construction industry showing no sign of improving due to the British recession i was thinking about taking something good out of the situation and use the extra time wisely by playing consistently during the day as a sort of preparation for maybe earning a living from poker which would be way off in the future if it happens.

      I would be looking to play around 8-10 hours a day with breaks but i would need to switch to the BSS as i am currently playing SSS.

      ~ Would it be better to start with BSS FR or SH.

      ~ Also would it be better if i had some sort of rakeback deal as well?

      Ideally i would like to stay at PokerStars but, obviously, they dont offer rakeback but i could purchase bonus's later on if i succeed with moving up the levels. Or i could use my Ladbrokes account and participate in the rake race.

      I would be starting with $100 and playing NL5 and move up with proper BRM.

      Any ideas/thoughts would be welcomed.

      Kind Regards,
      -Steve
  • 23 replies
    • mishkagg
      mishkagg
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.07.2008 Posts: 1,354
      Originally posted by TheBu11d0g~ Would it be better to start with BSS FR or SH.
      Fullring for sure.

      Originally posted by TheBu11d0g~ Also would it be better if i had some sort of rakeback deal as well?
      Of course, why would you even ask?

      Originally posted by TheBu11d0gI would be starting with $100 and playing NL5 and move up with proper BRM.
      And you even start it wrong as 20 buy ins are NOT enough if you haven't played the BSS before.

      All in all I believe you're gonna get raped in maybe 2 weeks even on the 0.02/0.05 limit... I mean think about it. It's ridiculous. Going pro with $100 starting capital and you've never played the BSS before. Does this sound serious to you? I find it laughable but that's just me. I firmly believe you need at least a few thousand dollars bankroll and a several hundred thousand hands before you even think of extending with the SSS and start devoting more and more time and eventually go pro. Then add a few hundred thousand more hands with the BSS and there you have it. That's my two cents.
    • TheBu11d0g
      TheBu11d0g
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.07.2008 Posts: 2,019
      Hello mishkagg,

      Thank you for your honest answers.

      As for starting on NL5 with $100 i was going on what PS recommends in their Strategy Articles, unless they have revised it recently.

      Kind Regards,
      -Steve
    • Fongie
      Fongie
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.12.2006 Posts: 4,978
      I think you would find it very very hard to just start grinding NL5 FR and right away move up the limits and make a nice extra income, but if you devote a lot of that free time to learn and watch videos in the start, there's nothing wrong with grinding 8 hours a day if you want to do that.

      I wouldn't call it a fulltime job until you are at a limit where you feel comfortable and make good profit, because if you start with $100 you won't want to withdraw any until you're up at something like NL100+. This will take a while too if you've never played with a big stack before (trust me, it's a whole different world than SSS), but if you have the stamina to play/study poker for 10 hours a day then of course you will make quicker progress than most.

      Contrary to mishkagg I think 20 BIs is fine for NL5 if you take the first few days to learn and watch videos (important!) before you start playing. Just make sure you don't rush too much at the start just because you're so eager to make money.. Don't forget to post hands!!!! I recommend actually just browsing through the hands people have posted on the limit you want to play and see what judges say to get some clue about different lines, and I also very highly recommend the "hand evaluation coaching"

      You should start with FR first, it's more similar to SSS than SH, and SH requires a bigger BR (not to mention it's harder). You can always switch later.

      Good luck
      (ps. add me on skype xxx ;) if you want, maybe I could help you or atleast Id be interested in your progress if you decide to go for it :P )
    • shivas80
      shivas80
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.12.2008 Posts: 573
      Well, i donno what you eat, drink or even if you do it at all (maybe bot? :)

      But 100$ its like nothing, can you live with 100$ whole month? Then whats this poker pro....

      In first month you will play breakeven (maybe bit of profit), donno your post flop skills, cos on SSS you don't need them i guess... just push/fold :)

      And if you play superb game and make +20$ each day... well, thats 600$ a month, and basicly u can't cashout, coz then you can't move up limit :)

      Donno, but i would play it like hoby while i build it to few $k then move a limits where im comfortable and only then switch to "pro" mode.
    • cannell555
      cannell555
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      Hey Steve,

      First off, playing poker 8-10 hours a day, everyday, thats gonna be boring as hell. Therefore it'll be hard for you to play your best game and focus 100%.

      It is not neccessarily better to have a rakeback deal. For instance I make alot more $$ on a non rakeback site, than I do on any of the rakeback sites. Mainly because the blind structures suck on any rakeback site i've tried (SnG player). But also due to the layout and functions of the site.

      The problem with playing for a living (hate the term poker pro for online players) with such a small roll is, you need to build your roll so it can cope with HIOUGGGGEEE!! swings, and while you build it up, you still need wages/income for living.

      You need to atleast have an expected return, and make the decisions based on that.

      Skype me about it if you like ;)
      Stiev
    • TheBu11d0g
      TheBu11d0g
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.07.2008 Posts: 2,019
      Hey Fongie,

      Thank you for the good advice.

      To be honest, at the start im not going to be too worried about withdrawing and earning an extra income as my expenses are just about being covered at the moment as is my rent on the flat, so i wouldn't have that sort of pressure at the start.

      It probably would be better to have made that distinction in the first place.

      As for adding you on Skype, consider it done :D

      Kind Regards,
      -Steve
    • TheBu11d0g
      TheBu11d0g
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.07.2008 Posts: 2,019
      Original post is now edited :D

      Hopefully this time i've expressed myself a bit better :rolleyes:

      Kind Regards,
      -Steve
    • darkonebg
      darkonebg
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 17.01.2008 Posts: 9,508
      Originally posted by TheBu11d0g

      I would be looking to play around 8-10 hours a day with breaks but i would need to switch to the BSS as i am currently playing SSS.
      It is impossible to keep 8hour+/day tempo for a long time.Poker is really mind and energy consuming process,its not like actual work. Good think is, that you can earn good money with 4-6 hours/day on the low/mid limits.

      ~ Would it be better to start with BSS FR or SH.
      With no experience in BSS and so limited bankroll , I'd suggest FR. The skillset needed for a +ev play is easily achievable.


      ~ Also would it be better if i had some sort of rakeback deal as well?
      I actually earn more from rakeback/bonuses than from actual play.Hope that answers your question


      Ideally i would like to stay at PokerStars but, obviously, they dont offer rakeback but i could purchase bonus's later on if i succeed with moving up the levels. Or i could use my Ladbrokes account and participate in the rake race.
      Stars rakeback is good only after a certain level. But the level of play is superior there. Stick to fishy sites for the low limits - Everest/Pacific all have good bonuses in terms of rakeback, and terrible players.


      I would be starting with $100 and playing NL5 and move up with proper BRM.
      Normally, 20 stacks isnt enough for BSS, but being a limit so low and FR, I think that with solid play you will handle the swings.You can read in my blog, how I've started with 5-10 BIs(ofc with the intention of bringing more if busted and with lots of experience behind my back.

      Any ideas/thoughts would be welcomed.
      Remember the cycle of a true poker pro

      Study>Implement(play)>Evaluate>Study>...

      So by spending 8 hours a day, you should ,for the beggining, be focusing at least an equal ammount of hours played for study/evaluation process. After a month with that tempo you may reduce it to 2:1.After some months a 3:1 is enough.

      Dont expect any income at first.Even if you win like crazy, you will need the money in order to make a healthy bankroll.Depending on your lifestyle, you can start withdrawing after you have a good enough bankroll for NL50/100(40+ BIs).I believe that by grinding these limits you can earn yourself a good enough living only from rakeback, while keeping your ev winnings for a limit climb.
    • Schnitzelfisch
      Schnitzelfisch
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 4,952
      well you can grind more FR tables at a time = better rakeback, SP, less blinds/100 hands, etc... but SH is way more fun to me, more action and i think it can be more profitable than FR cause of more agressive play :) . you decide though...
    • kingdippy2008
      kingdippy2008
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.08.2008 Posts: 2,107
      Why does every hate SH, i went straight into SH no problem :P .

      No i think at first try FR and maybe play 2-6 tables and see what its like. Then if you find it realllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllly boring then maybe play SH. I dunno what the first posted is on about because you wont get raped on NL5 SH, its sooooo easy. There might be a few swings.

      And anyway if you wanna see what low limit SH is like: www.pokerstrategy.com/forum/thread.php?threadid=42083

      Yh!

      -Jack
    • LemOn36
      LemOn36
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 07.02.2009 Posts: 1,354
      Move up to a limit, play 40K hands, look at your $/Hour and than decide to go pro or not.

      You should make at least $6 (£4)/hour to consider going pro. Its doable at NL5 9 Tabling SH if you have the discipline.
    • slikec
      slikec
      Global
      Joined: 04.02.2008 Posts: 1,155
      Lets make some calculations shall we.

      I mean that is sth. i just always do when i need to make decisions.

      Your known variables are:
      -100$ starting capital,
      -8-10 hours per day.

      Unknown:
      -what type,
      -how many tables,
      -which site.

      What site is not so important you need to decide what type and than how many tables.

      I will make calculation how if you play so much and you are winning player making for living shouldn't be problem even low stakes(cause less swings cause players less aggressive/fishier).

      I will make calculation for you that you play NL10 SH 6 tables 8 hours per day 25 days per month with winrate 5BB/100 which should be achievable.

      So 8hours-25 days=200h
      Average is lets say at SH tables 75games per hour which makes=75*6*200=90k hands per month

      90k/100*0,5=450$

      If you have rake back lets say 25% you should get 200$ rake back which makes 650$.

      if you move up to NL25 multiply with 2,5 and that makes solid 1625$ per month!

      With so much hands month you should get 25% rake back at most poker sites and low limits as you can see rake back is important!

      For FR you can add 2 tables easily and cut to 60hands per hour on table.


      But at the end i would say is better to learn the game master it play less and higher stakes and enjoy more in overall if you manage all that ;)

      Good luck with it,

      slikec

      P.S.: You should start with NL5 and move to NL10 if you belive in game at 200$ if not a bit later.
    • TheBu11d0g
      TheBu11d0g
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.07.2008 Posts: 2,019
      Hey guys,

      Thanks to everyone who has left a comment. Its very much appreciated.

      As already mentioned in my OP im not looking to go "PRO" anytime soon but its more to do with laying the foundations now for that by starting on the lower limits so that i can learn the game and understand the plays before i even think about making that decision, let alone actually do it.

      And slikec, thank you for those calculations as they will come in very handy when i come to make that decision in the future.

      Kind Regards,
      -Steve
    • delete461
      delete461
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.07.2008 Posts: 1,036
      Terrorblade went pro last week, have you read his blog?

      why say you have to switch to BSS? There are professional shortstackers, the variance is lower and rakeback etc is higher since you can play more hands.

      get as much rakeback and bonuses as you can - cream every last dollar you can find.

      get an exercise routine going, you may have to force yourself to do this - at our age its not so good to go from a real job to sitting in front of a computer all day
    • TheLastNail
      TheLastNail
      Black
      Joined: 30.05.2008 Posts: 6,024
      what darkonebg posted, abs true... if u re any serious and follow those advises, u re very likely to be at about NL20 till the end of your 1st month, where u ll basically know some fundaments.. and then can try to actually earn sth tangible the 2nd month.. never play more than 6h/day without analyzing!!! ... u ll just get game addicted and get lazy to analyze and be content with current winrates, eventhough u d achieve much more if analyzing for a bit before..

      post your hands in hand analysis forum and read and think abt those of others.. this will improve your game rapidly
    • darkonebg
      darkonebg
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 17.01.2008 Posts: 9,508
      Originally posted by kingdippy2008
      Why does every hate SH, i went straight into SH no problem :P .
      Im far from hating it. I love it, and cant possibly imagine going back to FR.But I also know in what extent the SH play is more volatile(you can expect 20BI swings while multitabling SH), and more difficult(needless to say, more hands you need to play = more postflop skills).In return we get worse players and more hands per hour, the combination of both = higher winrates.



      As already mentioned in my OP im not looking to go "PRO" anytime soon but its more to do with laying the foundations now for that by starting on the lower limits so that i can learn the game and understand the plays before i even think about making that decision, let alone actually do it.


      Now that is really the way to go. You can also settle for the "semi-pro" solution, the one Im actually at. :evil:

      Originally posted by TheLastNail
      what darkonebg posted, abs true... if u re any serious and follow those advises, u re very likely to be at about NL20 till the end of your 1st month, where u ll basically know some fundaments.. and then can try to actually earn sth tangible the 2nd month.. never play more than 6h/day without analyzing!!! ... u ll just get game addicted and get lazy to analyze and be content with current winrates, eventhough u d achieve much more if analyzing for a bit before..

      post your hands in hand analysis forum and read and think abt those of others.. this will improve your game rapidly
      Needless to say, studying consists of reading and re-reading and then rererereading the articles(over the course of time,you will notice that after playing a certain number of hands, more aspects in those articles become more clear to you, even if you thought you got all the information from the article in your previous reads).Watching videos is also a great way to understand the articles. Evaluation consists in reviewing your session's big pots(both won and lost), in the search of possible errors,as well as some questionable hands.Posting all the hand you have any doubts about is crucial to evaluating your game.We judges, will provide you with the best possible evaluation and answer all your collateral questions.
      Learning to use a tracking software(first off without the HUD, then with some basic HUD info, then with more and more HUD info) is also essential for a poker grinder.
      At last, session times may vary. I prefer doing 2h sessions with breaks. Some do 3 hour sessions, but making more than two of these as a standart will be too much.
    • TheBu11d0g
      TheBu11d0g
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.07.2008 Posts: 2,019
      Thanks for the last 3 comments guys.

      All of the help and comments/suggestions i have got so far has been excellant and much appreciated and respected.

      Before i even hit the tables i will take the time to read/re-read and re-read again the bronze articles to internalize the basics as well as watching all the NL5 videos as well.

      Kind Regards,
      -Steve
    • Alexd10
      Alexd10
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.07.2008 Posts: 609
      Hey steve,

      I'm a student in the UK and i'm off for the easter holidays and as as student I constantly need to add to my bank ballance during the holidays as it depletes quite quickly when partying every night :D

      So I'm back for the Easter holidays and usually during the holidays I have a part time job at my local pub, its not great I don't particularly enjoy or dislike it but this time they wouldn't hire me, obviously because of the credit crunch. So I've been trying to make some money off poker instead and so far its been ok, I started off with $250 and played NL10 SH managed to get up to NL20 then NL30 but have had to move down. with a BR hovering aroung $700/$800 I do believe I should be able to double this before I go back to uni, therefore making over double I would have made at the pub.

      The point i'm trying to make is that it is possible to make profit from poker at the lower stakes however it does take alot of time and learning. I think for yourself you could quite easily make a living off playing at NL100 which many people do, you don't have to play the nosebleed limits to earn a living.


      Sorry if i've rambled a bit I got on a bit of a typing roll.

      Gl with whatever you decide to do and i'm sorry to hear about your job. (I'm not looking forward to finding my first job as people are still being made redundant)
    • TheBu11d0g
      TheBu11d0g
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.07.2008 Posts: 2,019
      Hey Alex,

      Your words of encouragement are gratefully recieved mate, thank you.

      As for the issue of jobs, i think alot of people will be finding it tough thanks to our great British government :evil:

      Good luck for the next few weeks mate with ya poker and enjoy the uni life while ya can Alex :D

      Kind Regards,
      -Steve
    • 1
    • 2