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[NL10] 3bet pot - BTN vs BB

    • zetozinho
      zetozinho
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.06.2017 Posts: 761

      It's been a while that I've not been posting, so here's one for discussion.

      Villain: 60hands, 16/9/9
      Preflop: It is a call against BB. It's is a 4x 3bet but I have position. Should I include this hand in my 4bet range vs BB?
      Decided to just flat.

      Flop: I get a gut-shot draw. He bets 1/3, which is on the low side imo. Board is wet, I was expecting a bigger bet or a check. Easy call imo. Raising here didn't appeal me at the time because I don't have a heart and can't continue bluffing on much turns. Could raise flop to check-back turn and see a free-card, it is another option.

      Turn: pairs the board and he checks. I think he should continue often here, so I see this check as weakness. I'm checking some turns as well, maybe probing my PP from protection. My plan here was to check-back and re-evaluate river. On a heart and check I'd probably overbet river as a bluff. If he decided to bet river, probably give up.

      River: he checks again. at this point I don't think he has much, but sometimes it could be a monster slowplay. Not sure about if this is a spot where I'm being induced to bet often. His hand looks like some missed Ax, my kicker is not the best I can lose to AQ. AK should bet imo. Ax's on a FD's should be betting turn often imo as well.
      I have some showdown value but he has some PP (66-99).
      I have some value hands, but the turn round going check-check is what cause my doubts for the river here. I don't know for sure if I can represent a value hand and get some folds.
      Despite that, at the time I decided to bet 1/2 trying to represent it instead of going to showdown.

      Note: The check-twice line from villain is often considered an "auto-profit" line in some spots at the micros and maybe that justifies overbetting in this rivers.

      Ideas?
  • 14 replies
    • AnDoRPoKe
      AnDoRPoKe
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.08.2009 Posts: 6,113
      Hey !
      Would have played same way until turn. When he checks, I agree with you, it's a sign of weakness. So I would bet as a bluff to take the pot right away :)
    • MyFloXyBabY
      MyFloXyBabY
      Silver
      Joined: 15.02.2010 Posts: 4,168
      So you're still playing ? You have time with the Carnival approaching ? :P

      I don't see the point of betting that turn because I expect it to be check/raised and check/called a lot. We make fold what we already beat.
    • AnDoRPoKe
      AnDoRPoKe
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.08.2009 Posts: 6,113
      I don't want vilain to hit the river with whatever he has. I don't expect to be x/r or x/c a lot when he bets 1/3pot OTF and x the turn. And if he happens to call, I have a gutshot and an overcard that can still save me.
      In addition, if I bet turn, vilain usually won't bluff the river. If I check, that can happen and it will be difficult to make a call with A high here.
    • MyFloXyBabY
      MyFloXyBabY
      Silver
      Joined: 15.02.2010 Posts: 4,168
      That's a blatant check/raising spot for villain come on. By betting you are risking a lot to accomplish really marginal things (denying equity to hands that are already way behind and keeping him from bluffing the river as if he could do that easily lol). Just play your showdown value and retained equity instead of throwing it out of the window and allowing villain to play perfectly against you.
    • AnDoRPoKe
      AnDoRPoKe
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.08.2009 Posts: 6,113
      Oh yeah forgive me, betting 1/3 pot and x/r after is a very common line in micro, my bad.
    • MyFloXyBabY
      MyFloXyBabY
      Silver
      Joined: 15.02.2010 Posts: 4,168
      ... You haven't changed one bit.
      Maybe one day you'll resolve to play actual poker though.
    • AnDoRPoKe
      AnDoRPoKe
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.08.2009 Posts: 6,113
      Could say the same. You always try to apply your theories (which may be good at higher limits, no problem with that) but never happen at low limits. Have you played low limits recently ?

      Once again, at low limits, when an opponent is betting 1/3 OTF and x OTT, it's nearly always a sign of weakness. THEORETICALLY yes, it's a good spot to x/r, but no one is gonna do this at those limits.

      According to my tracker, over the last 20k hands at micros, facing CBet OTF (didn't even put the sizing) and and facing x/r OTT has NEVER happened.

      So...
      Originally posted by MyFloXyBabY
      Maybe one day you'll resolve to play actual poker though.

      LOL :f_drink:
    • MyFloXyBabY
      MyFloXyBabY
      Silver
      Joined: 15.02.2010 Posts: 4,168
      I don't know what kind of idiots you are playing, and good for you, but even at NL10 on good sites there are decent players you know.
      Anyway telling a better player that he doesn't know what he's talking about because of the very fact you find him better is always fun to hear though so thank you for the nonsense.

      You reasoning is so ridiculous it makes me wanna cry, you are treating any spot the same, you don't care about ranges, positions, board textures and all, you just see "oh he checks I can bet my hand duh". You're gonna go far kid.
      But hey you played 20Kh at micros. Who am I to judge lmao. :D
    • Tosh5457
      Tosh5457
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.01.2008 Posts: 3,076
      I'd play like you until the turn, and check OTR. Any PP is calling there, so you're just trying to bluff AQ.
    • la55i
      la55i
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 8,909
      Let's calm down, shall we :)
      Floxy is a mad troll but sometimes he has something wise to say too. In this case I think his opinion regarding the turn is ok. I think we could in some cases indeed bet the turn but then we should be prepared to barrel the river too.
      Btw I don't believe that cbet flop and xr turn line has never happened in a 20k hand sample. And if that is really true, it is very weird.
    • MyFloXyBabY
      MyFloXyBabY
      Silver
      Joined: 15.02.2010 Posts: 4,168
      That escalated quickly because AnDoRPoKe and me knew each other from the french community years ago (and already didn't get along at all).

      Indeed if we take a stab OTT AQo+ is gonna call and we will accomplish the great achievement of making A9s- fold, congratulations. So we need to also bet OTR to actually bluff some hands but all in all it's risky and we'd prefer to try that with hands that have less SDV and therefore less to lose.
    • zetozinho
      zetozinho
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.06.2017 Posts: 761
      Thank you all.
      I know I have some showdown value in this situation, but would really meh to lose to AQ :D
      I don't expect to be check-raised often OTT at NL10, but I agree that by betting we give up equity. Besides, I'd have a much difficult decision OTR if I took that line. With some more info on villain, namely cbet stats and fold to cbets, I bet turn with the intention of stealing the pot right way sometimes.
      I decided to bet river mainly because of the common auto-profit line that is a population tendency. Until it keeps this way no reason to miss this spots and improve my red line :D

      About Carnival Floxy... yes, we're already all crazy about it, 1 week to go and I already have set the wine pipes, including some french one :D
    • MyFloXyBabY
      MyFloXyBabY
      Silver
      Joined: 15.02.2010 Posts: 4,168
      Originally posted by zetozinho
      About Carnival Floxy... yes, we're already all crazy about it, 1 week to go and I already have set the wine pipes, including some french one :D
      I didn't make it so I decline full responsability if it's bad =)
      Well in fact it should be better that way. Enjoy it well, you alcoholic. :milord:
    • AnDoRPoKe
      AnDoRPoKe
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.08.2009 Posts: 6,113
      Yeah we've been in love for years now :f_love: He is so cute when you disagree with him, can't resist the charm sorry, won't happen again :f_frown: