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[NL2] QQ flop

    • Adelardo
      Adelardo
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.03.2008 Posts: 1,739
      PokerStars - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

      UTG: 100 BB (VPIP: 30.00, PFR: 10.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 10)
      CO: 100 BB (VPIP: 29.63, PFR: 25.93, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 28)
      Hero (BTN): 98.5 BB
      SB: 170 BB (VPIP: 31.25, PFR: 31.25, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 35)
      BB: 88 BB (VPIP: 26.67, PFR: 1.92, 3Bet Preflop: 4.65, Hands: 109)

      SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

      Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q:club: Q:diamond:

      UTG raises to 3 BB, fold, Hero raises to 9 BB, fold, fold, UTG calls 6 BB

      Flop: (19.5 BB, 2 players) A:spade: 7:spade: T:spade:
      UTG bets 14.5 BB, fold

      UTG wins 19 BB

      I folded her. It is saturday and week-ends are hells on pokerstars.com.

      Is that move too weak ? And how to play that hand ?
  • 22 replies
    • herrmutig
      herrmutig
      Gold
      Joined: 18.10.2018 Posts: 130
      Folding is fine. donking flop on 3-bet pots is kinda strong.

      I probably would call 1 street.
      I can't give him a lot of credit on the flop. I actually dunno what he trys to represent lol.
    • Mozzek
      Mozzek
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.07.2016 Posts: 1,255
      Why do you feel you need to call a hand which is 1) not even high in our range 2) has no outs to improve on? Easy fold OTF from gto stand point imo and explo even easier.

      If it was checked to you, you have an easy 1/3 cbet OTF and then give up.
    • marcvz
      marcvz
      Gold
      Joined: 03.04.2012 Posts: 34
      I don't think it looks strong at all and would raise or call and play the turn very aggressive.
      I pick the last option the most because he will call with his pockets that have a spade. But will give those up on the turn if a non spade hits.
      Most of the times I see this play they stop betting on the turn and you can pick up the pot with a decent bet.
      I see a lot of aces here that don't wanna fold because well, they've hit their ace but they have to because it's a mono board..
      So they donk to get some value from their ace because they feel they deserve to..

      UTG has a lot of suited aces in his range, which means he missed the color because the ace is already out there.
      And all his pockets have a FD at best.
    • MyFloXyBabY
      MyFloXyBabY
      Silver
      Joined: 15.02.2010 Posts: 4,168
      Snap fold.
      Week-ends aren't hell on any room, it's where you'd expect to win the most on the long run.
    • zetozinho
      zetozinho
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.06.2017 Posts: 761
      Preflop I'm flating QQ as well a decent amount of the times. 3bet is fine too.
      Flop is a funny spot. I see the donks betting here their :Ks: , :Qs: or even :Js: and then give up turns if unimproved.
      Folding is a bit nitty imo, you have position and you are the agressor.
    • SDK1987
      SDK1987
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 12.11.2008 Posts: 41,080
      It's really tough to continue on a wet flop against a fish. He could have an Ace or better or a draw and if he bets the the turn again you can only call if you hit the :Qh:

      Cheers,
      SDK1987
    • MyFloXyBabY
      MyFloXyBabY
      Silver
      Joined: 15.02.2010 Posts: 4,168
      Yeah queens without a spade are unplayable trash here we have so many better hands to call with.
    • marcvz
      marcvz
      Gold
      Joined: 03.04.2012 Posts: 34
      Well.. Thats true, and turning queens into a bluff is most of the time not a good idea.
      But I feel like you can bluff a lot on monoboards at the micros.
      There are not that many possible flushes in the UTG 3bet calling range right?
      I think he has mostly suited aces and pockets.

      I guess it depends on your own image to.. So, in this case going for a fold might be the right choice because we dont have much history with the guy. But if you play a bit more and 3bet suited connectors a lot in this spot, you can put a lot of pressure on him..
    • TheBluffMeister
      TheBluffMeister
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.02.2019 Posts: 1
      First timer here and understanding hands is definitely something I want to improve on, but as a fish I do make the mistake of looking at the Q’s rank at times instead of it’s chances of getting a good connector. My first approach as anyone beginning to play is mostly on instinct or a hunch of the cards potentially playing out the way I want them to.

      So to get an idea of the hand displayed above is she (UTG) playing aggressive? And is a 3bet when 3 players raise in sequence like one after another?

      And I’ve noticed the potential Royal Flush may have appeared on the board during the next 2 rounds, so she could’ve been bluffing.
    • timkuy
      timkuy
      Silver
      Joined: 29.01.2009 Posts: 32
      From which perspective is a donkbet on a A10xspades flop against a 3bet flop 'not strong at all'?

      I think the move otf here really comes down to reads on villain. Without a clear read I think a flopfold is fine here a large portion of our range. with that said QQ seems good enough to at least warrant a call some of the time, perhaps 30-40%?

      But what do we want to see on the turn, if another spade comes and villain checks it to us, are we betting? if no spade comes and it checks, are we betting? I find this a rather precarious spot, because it is hard to put villain on a range. He could also have some backdoor straights.
    • marcvz
      marcvz
      Gold
      Joined: 03.04.2012 Posts: 34
      I would give up if a spade comes. But bluff if a nonspade comes.
      But if you are villain and you flop a flush here, why on earth would you donk?
      Check raising or check calling would be much better.
      So most if not all hands he donks here are hands that lose to a flush I think..
    • MyFloXyBabY
      MyFloXyBabY
      Silver
      Joined: 15.02.2010 Posts: 4,168
      Originally posted by marcvz
      I would give up if a spade comes. But bluff if a nonspade comes.
      But if you are villain and you flop a flush here, why on earth would you donk?
      Check raising or check calling would be much better.
      So most if not all hands he donks here are hands that lose to a flush I think..
      Quite true, but still not enough. First because they can be stupid enough to donk their flushes (or at least their pair + FD that won't give up).
      Second because they are clearly donking for value on that kind of spot, and they don't have the skill level to make a big laydown later on if you try to represent the flush (when only 3 spades on the board they pretty much never fold their strong SDV). Anyway logic would dictate that you try that with a combo that holds a spade blocker.
      Therefore it's a really bad idea with QQ without spades here imo. That's why I clearly advocate for a snap fold OTF as there is nothing else to do.
    • marcvz
      marcvz
      Gold
      Joined: 03.04.2012 Posts: 34
      Well, I'm not convinced they only donk there for value. I see people also donk KK in that spot. They feel like calling a bet is hard, so they donk and hope to pick up the pot right away.
      Either way, I think it depends on reads and without them, you can take either route.
      I'd try turning my hand in a bluff and rep the flush. If they donk their flush, I make a note and never have to pay off their flushes again.
    • MyFloXyBabY
      MyFloXyBabY
      Silver
      Joined: 15.02.2010 Posts: 4,168
      So you'd massively overbluff this spot because you suppose sometimes the guy can also have KK without spades ? That's pretty much the only combo that can fold and that beats you... And it's so not the most sound one to expect... What guy would open/call with KK to donk on Axx mono...
      Now that you tell me that I agree with you even less then before lol. I really don't think it's a good reasoning.
    • marcvz
      marcvz
      Gold
      Joined: 03.04.2012 Posts: 34
      I don't think this guy has KK.
      That was in a more general sense. I see a lot of donk bets with strong pockets when there is an overcard on nl2.
      Like ' I'm not wanna let you bluff me off my KK,QQ,JJ now that Ace is out here, so I donk into you so you can't bluff the ace' kinda thinking.
      I wrote 'people', not 'this guy'.
      No need to 'lol' dude, I just introduced myself here and like this sharing of thoughts. And I highly respect your play, advice and contributions on this site.
      Lets keep it clean.

      I don't bluff this spot because he can have KK. I think that's not in his range.
      I think he has all the suited aces, all pockets up to QQ. AJo+, KQo. And KJs+
      Not a lot of made flushes in there.
      And I think he will give up a lot of those non flushes on the turn if no other spade comes on the board.
      If he donks because he has it, its good to know and I make a note. But I don't believe it just because he donks into us.

      You think he donks for value. But where does he get value from?
      What does he want us to call with?
      I think he wants to pick it up right here and stop the action because his hand is vulnerable.
    • MyFloXyBabY
      MyFloXyBabY
      Silver
      Joined: 15.02.2010 Posts: 4,168
      There is nothing unclean in my "lol", it's just a bad habit of mine I say it all the time, even in irl speech.

      You often see that in 3bet pots ? Are you sure ? And what about monotone flops ? Those are usually the spots where villain tend to donk in value (or semi-bluff) only because he fears we are gonna check back a lot and he wants to bet his strong holdings right away.
      The guy putting 14,5 BB into a 19,5BB pot doesn't seem to be here for show. I don't expect his strategy to be consisted of putting half of his stack into the middle before making a fold out of it. He'd probably be happy to be shoved at OTF.


      Originally posted by marcvz
      I think he wants to pick it up right here and stop the action because his hand is vulnerable.
      Sure. That's why his range is quite strong and as I said they don't know how to fold (unless eventually if a fourth spade falls) so it's a useless bluff.
    • marcvz
      marcvz
      Gold
      Joined: 03.04.2012 Posts: 34
      Originally posted by MyFloXyBabY
      There is nothing unclean in my "lol", it's just a bad habit of mine I say it all the time, even in irl speech.
      Ok, no problem. Felt more like a 'I don't take you serious and laugh in your face'. But no offense intended so none taken :)

      The bet sizing could also be explained as 'fire big once and give up'.

      There is nothing wrong with a fold. Can't disagree with that. So let's say that should be the default option without reads ;)
    • MLima1984
      MLima1984
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.05.2015 Posts: 213
      easy fold imo
    • Oly0909
      Oly0909
      Silver
      Joined: 08.06.2008 Posts: 902
      I don’t believe this is bluff. I think it’s most likely AK/AQ kind of hand (UTG open/flat, donk big on A). He hits his TP, but he has big problem with a board. He doesn’t wanna see another spade on a turn, so he donks big for protection. Can we bluff here? If we shove flop, maybe, but on turn, I don’t think he’s folding any more...
      Just my 2 cents...
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