6-Max?

    • tokyoaces
      tokyoaces
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,883
      Short handed games are the most popular games in the online poker world right now, but I can't find any of the strategy articles that mention it at all.

      Looking for only full tables is really limiting my ability to play and collect strategy points. (Or more importantly it's really limiting my ability to make any money for this site.)
  • 22 replies
    • nafar84
      nafar84
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.09.2008 Posts: 546
      There are some really awesome 6-max videos here, but admittedly most of them are Silver level and above. The best one for Bronze is probably this. So check that out & work on getting to Silver!
    • Fongie
      Fongie
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.12.2006 Posts: 4,978
      It is recommended that you start out by playing Full Ring with a big stack. This is beacuse SH (6-max) is more advanced and much harder for beginners. It is easy to make the transition to SH once you've played FR, made it to silver and read some articles/watched some videos on the subject though. :)
    • tokyoaces
      tokyoaces
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,883
      Originally posted by Fongie
      This is beacuse SH (6-max) is more advanced and much harder for beginners.
      This is not true at all. There are some excellent beginner strategies that are quite profitable at the micro limits. They are only slightly harder to learn than SSS and roughly equivalent to BSS.

      For people who have never played a hand of poker the system on this website might be good. However it is frustratingly difficult for those of us who know plenty of basic poker and also already have Full Tilt and Poker Stars accounts.

      I'm starting to feel unwanted here and much more welcome at your standard $30US coaching videos site. (I don't even want the start up capital. I'd transfer it back for access to some decent information.) If silver was permanent it might be worth it, but try to suffer through 100 points in order to get access for 4-5 weeks is asking quite a bit. Those $100 sign up fees are suddenly very tempting!

      nafar84, thank you so much for pointing out that video. At least it gives me a way to determine how much effort I should put into getting to silver!
    • Fongie
      Fongie
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.12.2006 Posts: 4,978
      Um, alright. If you think you're a good player already, then playing SH and getting those first 100 SPs won't be difficult, and you wouldn't need a beginner article on SH then anyway.

      The beginner strategies on PStrategy are made to be as easy to learn and use as possible, by the use of starting hand charts. And you cannot play SH using a starting hand chart, which is why you need to be silver to read the SH article and watch the SH videos.

      If you think there is an easy beginner strategy using starting hand charts, then I think you're better off playing FR anyway :)
    • Dragar
      Dragar
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.09.2008 Posts: 2,214
      Originally posted by tokyoaces
      Originally posted by Fongie
      This is beacuse SH (6-max) is more advanced and much harder for beginners.
      This is not true at all. There are some excellent beginner strategies that are quite profitable at the micro limits. They are only slightly harder to learn than SSS and roughly equivalent to BSS.

      For people who have never played a hand of poker the system on this website might be good. However it is frustratingly difficult for those of us who know plenty of basic poker and also already have Full Tilt and Poker Stars accounts.

      I'm starting to feel unwanted here and much more welcome at your standard $30US coaching videos site. (I don't even want the start up capital. I'd transfer it back for access to some decent information.) If silver was permanent it might be worth it, but try to suffer through 100 points in order to get access for 4-5 weeks is asking quite a bit. Those $100 sign up fees are suddenly very tempting!

      nafar84, thank you so much for pointing out that video. At least it gives me a way to determine how much effort I should put into getting to silver!
      Well the only way to learn SH is to play it I guess. Give it a shot and see how you like it.

      Think of it as FR with less people. Hence hand ranges increase.

      And like Fongie said.. there is no beginner strategy for SH using a starting hand chart. But ok if you want one:

      Raise any pp from any position.
      Raise KJ+ starting from CO.
      Steal with Ax
      Steal with 10J+ (even lower when the blinds are nits)
      raise limpers with KJ+, A10+. Against fish even loser if you can outplay them post-flop (fish usually limp with pps, suited connectors and Ax.. sometimes also pretty good hands so be careful). Be aware of position because regs will know what your doing.
      3-bet with AQ+ (right now exploring to increase 3-bet range from CO and BU to 14-15%, so it won't be as wide as my limper raise range, but much wide then it is now. This will work vs tight regs, but not against passive fish)
      Defend your blinds with high pps, AQ+ especially against BU raises, if BU raises a lot widen re-steal range accordingly.
      Respect blind re-raises. Low limit players do not usually re-steal and will do it only with good hands, some regs are exceptions.. just put notes on them.
      Respect 3-bets against you raise when your oop. 3-bet range on low limits its tight (all the more reason why I want to make mine more lose)

      Post-flop:
      Board texture is very important. You can use almost any high card to re-present your raise. Do not that when someone calls your c-bet oop and there are no draws he most likely has it. Turn play.. up to you, am struggling with second barrels myself right now. They are dependent on turn cards and board texture, not if you hit or not. Basically you goto think if the turn card (which has to be higher then any flop card and has to be JKQ or A... actually it really depends on board texture, you will see when you play I guess) fits villain range or not, if it doesn't you can bet it. If your wrong you will find out painfully right now haha.

      River is another thing all together, you have to do thin value bets and block bets. Block bets are best oop if your hand has show down value but there are better hands out there. If villain raises you its obviously fold. I would not worry too much that villain bluff raises you on the river because that takes too much skill and low limit players do not have this.

      Fold when you know your beat... villain will call 2/3+ size bet to chase draws frequently. If he bets pot into your river its not a bluff (who in their right mind bluff chases a draw praying that it completes only to pull off the biggest bluff of all on the river?).

      Well.. that sums it up I guess... not sure what else you wanna know.. just practise I guess. Do not play drunk... uhm... abuse limpers, adjust your play to opponents. If opponent is tight, call his raise with suited connectors etc. reason is that tight players sometimes cannot let go of their cards. Like KK, AA, AK, AQ, QQ.. etc. so if you hit something nice you can stack them.
      Do not try to outplay fish.... this will never ever work. They call you down with medium pair or so, so you better have the nuts or very close to it when it comes to showdown so that you can take them to value town.
    • tokyoaces
      tokyoaces
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,883
      Originally posted by Dragar
      Well.. that sums it up I guess... not sure what else you wanna know.. just practise I guess. Do not play drunk...
      Wow, thanks for all of that. :D I quoted my favorite part.

      I think I just need to get off of Pacific and sign up with a better site. I was just using it as a test to see if I liked PokerStrategy or not, but just based on the answers to this thread I think I will stick around for a while! :heart:

      Thanks for helping out and if there is some 6-max information at Silver then I can just wait until I get there.
    • Fongie
      Fongie
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.12.2006 Posts: 4,978
      Dragars range is reaaally tight ;) But I guess it could work if you're good enough postflop not to lose money there when you're beat.

      Post hands you're not sure of in the hand evaluation forum, it is important.
    • Dragar
      Dragar
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.09.2008 Posts: 2,214
      Originally posted by Fongie
      Dragars range is reaaally tight ;) But I guess it could work if you're good enough postflop not to lose money there when you're beat.

      Post hands you're not sure of in the hand evaluation forum, it is important.
      Yes I am very tight.... :(
      I am trying to become more lose, hence the 3-bet stuff.
      Breakeven over the last 10k hands makes baby Jesus cry...
    • radyan111
      radyan111
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.07.2008 Posts: 1,151
      Originally posted by Dragar

      Raise any pp from any position.
      Raise KJ+ starting from CO.
      Steal with Ax
      Steal with 10J+ (even lower when the blinds are nits)
      raise limpers with KJ+, A10+. Against fish even loser if you can outplay them post-flop (fish usually limp with pps, suited connectors and Ax.. sometimes also pretty good hands so be careful). Be aware of position because regs will know what your doing.
      3-bet with AQ+ (right now exploring to increase 3-bet range from CO and BU to 14-15%, so it won't be as wide as my limper raise range, but much wide then it is now. This will work vs tight regs, but not against passive fish)
      Defend your blinds with high pps, AQ+ especially against BU raises, if BU raises a lot widen re-steal range accordingly.
      Respect blind re-raises. Low limit players do not usually re-steal and will do it only with good hands, some regs are exceptions.. just put notes on them.
      Respect 3-bets against you raise when your oop. 3-bet range on low limits its tight (all the more reason why I want to make mine more lose)
      That's pretty tight IMO. I play looser, my pf raising range are sth like:
      UTG: AT+, 22+, KQ
      MP: A9s+, ATo+, 22+, KQo, KJs+
      CO: A2s+, A7o+, 22+, any broadways, 45s+
      BU: A2+, 22+, any broadways, 45s+, 67o+, some suited one-gappers
      SB: sth like CO, depends on the BB

      Isolate limpers in position - you often take the pot down preflop or with a cbet. I'm isolating almost with my whole openraising range when I have position on the limper.

      My 3bet range is JJ+, AQ+. I might also 3 bet looser in the blinds against BU raise.

      I'm 4betting/shoving with QQ+, usually also with AKs. In the blind battle AKo as well.


      Anyway - it all depends on the table and your feeling of the game ;) .
    • kingdippy2008
      kingdippy2008
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.08.2008 Posts: 2,107
      Just remember though, its alright giving charts but this is SH and a lot is about adaptation to the table and opponents. If they play tigher, you can play looser and collect a lot of small pots. If they play loose wait for a monster and get paid off :P

      Good luck with SH
    • tokyoaces
      tokyoaces
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,883
      Not everyone who signs up here is a poker newbie. I'm no poker pro, but I do have over 10,000 hands of SH Limit and about 6,000 of SH No-limit. It just happens to be the game type I need the most help with.

      If my Everest account was tracked here I would be gold by now. :D ;( I guess it's time to move to iPoker!
    • Vargan
      Vargan
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.03.2008 Posts: 565
      Hi,

      Read Ryan Fee's 6max guide found here: http://ryanfee.com/.

      He does not have the best writing skills, but he knows how to play poker.
      I learned alot from reading it, see:



      :D

      EDIT: Oh, and post hands.
    • darkonebg
      darkonebg
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 17.01.2008 Posts: 9,508
      @tokyoaces - having 6k hands on NL SH makes you no more but a beginner, believe me.Its my 2day quota.Therefore, I'd really start with the bronze articles and work my way up if I were you. If that means switching to FR for a while , so be it. I really believe FR is an important step to take for every beginner, in order to understand the importance of players on the table and position.

      @Vargan - It is really not a good idea to play according ryan fee's at the micro stakes, since it is designed to counterfit the TAGs at midstakes and is not really implementable against the loose-passive opponents NL50- has, not to talk about NL10.You have a nice heater over a small sample size, but its all it is.
    • tokyoaces
      tokyoaces
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,883
      Originally posted by darkonebg
      having 6k hands on NL SH makes you no more but a beginner, believe me.Its my 2day quota.
      I have no interest in playing poker 10 hours a day. A good month for me is finding the time to play 1,000 hands. However, just because I play for fun doesn't mean I want to lose.

      Originally posted by darkonebg
      I really believe FR is an important step to take for every beginner, in order to understand the importance of players on the table and position.
      I agree it's interesting for a beginner. However after 5 years of poker playing FR is a little boring. I just haven't found that FR is very profitable for the time investment. There just aren't enough fish there.

      Finally, as I've already mentioned, there are training websites that have beginner strategies for 6-max. If PokerStrategy.com wanted to they could also create such a thing as there are plenty of smart guys here that could work it out. If you think that 6-max poker is some "advanced" poker game then I laugh at both your silliness and hubris.

      There are even short stack strategies that are profitable at 6-max. So at a minimum one of those could be the gateway.
    • darkonebg
      darkonebg
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 17.01.2008 Posts: 9,508
      1.no1 is talking about a 10 hour/day grind. But in order to call yourself anything else than a begginer, you really must have some experience with the game,and playing is the only way to really learn.
      2.SH play is inevitably more complex than FR. The skillset that is required is harder to learn and get accustumed to.And at last, people here start with limited bankrolls, and the volatility of SH is far greater than in FR.Swings can become huge,in return, higher winrates are expected.
      3.I agree, FR becomes boring once you have been acustumed to SH or ultra SH play. Me personally, I cant bring myself to play FR, although I once too started with it.
      4.SH offers a lot of liberty regarding playing style, in contrast of playing FR. Pokerstrategy's advanced articles are about poker theory in general, leaving the "advanced" player create his own style.In that sense, I cant see a bronze member playing SH profitably, if thats his only source of knowedge tbh.Good thing is that an occasional player should be able to make 100SP/month without any problems.
      5.About SH SSS - while it may be profitable at the lower stakes, its not as profitable as in FR in his basic form.That has been well proven by some of the most active SSSers on this site.In its advanced form it can be profitable against anyone, even headsup, but we're not talking about "an easy strategy"
      6.About concurrent sites - some are proposing midstack approaches and others are spewing around with incompetent advices and/or strategy implementations . You shouldnt believe everything you read online.
    • tokyoaces
      tokyoaces
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,883
      Originally posted by darkonebg
      In that sense, I cant see a bronze member [snip]
      If you consider the number of Everest Points I've gotten in the past four weeks I would be a gold member. Since I'm enjoying PokerStrategy I am currently moving my bankroll off Everest and off to a new site that can be tracked by PS.

      I am still a beginner in no-limit (FR/SH) and short-handed limit and I totally agree with everything else you wrote in your post. However, I still think it is short-sited to not have at least a intro strategy article or one or two videos at the bronze level.

      Ultimately I've figured out my course of action. Pick a site that I don't have an account on, probably iPoker, and deposit $600. Then use SSS until I hit silver here. I can be at least that patient. :D

      (What was really grating on me when I wrote that first post is that I spent a whole Saturday playing four tables only to get about 6 Strategy Points. With the system here that means I would never reach silver.)
    • darkonebg
      darkonebg
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 17.01.2008 Posts: 9,508
      I congratulate you, as you have made the right decision.
      The number of strategy points depends mainly on the site,with party and titan gaining the most.I agree that as bronze member your options are somehow limited, but consider it as a "period",as the advantages silver+ gets you are unbeatably good.The site's benefits are far from ending with the articles,the videos and coachings are just a very good added benefit.
      You are also wellcome to post your hands at the Hand evaluation forums,where we, hand judges , will analyse them in order to give you a complete evaluation of your game and leaks.
      While playing, be sure to check the bankroll management articles, as your BRM will be the main factor for your mistakes' consequences.
      Overall, pokerstrategy is the ultimate choice and the best helper, no matter if you are a recreational player or on your way to being a poker pro.
    • Vargan
      Vargan
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.03.2008 Posts: 565
      Originally posted by darkonebg
      @Vargan - It is really not a good idea to play according ryan fee's at the micro stakes, since it is designed to counterfit the TAGs at midstakes and is not really implementable against the loose-passive opponents NL50- has, not to talk about NL10.You have a nice heater over a small sample size, but its all it is.
      Please remove the schtick from your unique lowerback muscle. :)
      You are the first player that has told me to stop winning.

      OP asked for advice on 6max, and I gave something that worked for me, why you feel the need to attept to invalidate others advice is beyond me. It works for me and maybe for the OP. But I guess not for you.

      And thanks for the compliment, you are so cool man. :D
    • tokyoaces
      tokyoaces
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,883
      Originally posted by darkonebg
      While playing, be sure to check the bankroll management articles, as your BRM will be the main factor for your mistakes' consequences.
      I've got $1200 in clean cash from playing limit back when Party Poker was king. However, I am break-even at $10NL FR and worse at $10NL SH so hopefully that can get sorted out before I lose 120BI's. :D

      I'll check out Titan and thanks for the help.
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