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[PLO25] KJ97ds 3bet flopped flush

    • efkay
      efkay
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 4,012
      Party, $0.10/$0.25 Pot Limit Omaha Cash, 6 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      Hero (SB): $26.60 (106.4 bb)
      BB: $81.59 (326.4 bb)
      UTG: $22.91 (91.6 bb)
      MP: $25.35 (101.4 bb)
      CO: $27.10 (108.4 bb)
      BTN: $44.63 (178.5 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is SB with :9c: :7s: :Js: :Kc:
      UTG raises to $0.85, 3 folds, Hero raises to $2.80, BB folds, UTG calls $1.95

      Flop: ($5.85) :Ts: :6s: :As: (2 players)
      Hero checks, UTG bets $5, Hero calls $5

      Turn: ($15.85) :9h: (2 players)
      Hero bets $15.06, UTG raises to $15.11 and is all-in, Hero calls $0.05

      River: ($46.07) :9d: (2 players, 1 is all-in)

      UTG is loose aggressive preflop but passive on flop. my default line with flopped weak flushes is to check and keep the pot small but I think here it is nonsense because UTG should only bet if he has something. I realised that by x/call on flop, so the turn is spr 1 so I decided what the hell just get it in while board isnt paired
  • 14 replies
    • SDK1987
      SDK1987
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      Joined: 12.11.2008 Posts: 42,780
      I would let him do the shoving in on the turn. I expect if he bets pot on the flop that he isn't checking the turn. Only problem could be that you end up with the 2nd best hand.

      Cheers,
      SDK1987
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
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      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 11,811
      You flop 3rd nuts in 3bet pot, SPR 3,5 against loose-aggro. Don't make your life complicated. Bet flop, shove turn. If he has a piece of the board he stacks off, if doesn't he folds. When you check, the same applies: if he has a piece he might bet, if he doesn't he checks.

      Make sure you get the money in as fast as possible, as his stack off range is widest before the river (when there are cards to come).

      You have a tendency of FPS (fancy-play syndrome). Do you have standard lines (that you do when playing against unknowns)?

      Here you also have a read that opponent is passive postflop. And you try to induce a bluff from air.

      And when you realize on the turn that SPR is 1, you are late. You should think about that on the flop, before you make your action. :)
    • efkay
      efkay
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      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 4,012
      In advanced PLO1 there is an advise that going broke with K high flush at SPR <4 is marginal. its ok the more it gets to 1. now my question: when spr between 2-4 what X-nd nuts is ok to go broke nowadays? I heard advanced PLO is a little bit out of date.

      regarding FPS/standard lines: On flushed flop I check heavily and I am just figuring out that might be bad idea because I give free cards.

      On other hand I think this might be good line against regulars because I dont get floated but instead make them believe I have a flush and only want them to bet which imo they dont because they recognize. at least I am very careful and honest if a reg check to me a flushed flop in single raised pot. but obv this was 3bet and vs passive fish and I made mistake and should have bet/broke I see
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
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      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 11,811
      I think it should the that stacking off with non-nuts flush at SPR > 4 is marginal. When SPR is under 4 and HU pot, folding a flush requires a good information and can't be standard line vs. unknown.
    • efkay
      efkay
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      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 4,012
      Hmm maybe I dont get it right but it says
      <4 OK / Iffy
      <13 Iffy / No
      thatis said for the bare k high flush. i have printed it out and put it at my wall but i dont want to argue over such things i just want to make sure i understand this right
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
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      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 11,811
      That sounds REALLY tight, if we are not happy to shove 2nd nut flush at SPR 4 or lower. People stack off there with any flush, set or 2 pairs. Some people stack off with straights and straight draws too at that SPR.

      I would say that at SPR 4 and lower you don't ever fold a flush in hu pots. Ever. EVER.
    • Mascherano95
      Mascherano95
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      Joined: 09.10.2010 Posts: 414
      Pre: I don't 3bet that hand oop against an early raise. Against EP or MP I am 3-betting very tight oop. Not only because of situations like this. Nuttiness oop is so important, and you dont have an Equity-Advantage that you could push against his tight range, second you have insufficient playability/visibility: your flushes are non-nutted, you have too many gaps, your 2pairs are dominated. In general you avoid difficult spots (oop in 3bp with marginal hands) by being more selective with your preflop-ranges. Better hands to resteal oop would be AK54ds, AQ97ds, AK86ds (preferably with K/Q as a second suit), AJT8ds, AKKQds.

      Flop: At the beginning I played it like Kyyberi said just bet pot pot with all my high flushes, check-call to check-fold next street or bet-folding is bleeding money away. Up to SPR 2 is ok imo to get in the second nut-flush against all opponents. When the SPR is 3, 4 or higher it gets more player dependend. You see a lot of players getting it in with third, fourth nutflushes in the mid-low SPR area but I dont think it is standard. On the other hand there are some nitty regs, that only continue with a nutflush otf or play it good ip. On locked-down flops like the monotone flop oop Galphond advises to bet 1/3 pot. Lots of regulars do not react properly against that strategy and overreact, they start to play fit-fold or gettin it in too light, especially at zoom, you cannot create a propriate counterstrategy just on the fly. The problem is: Most of his flushes are nutflushes or second nut-flushes. If I assume him the PJ 12% range, and you discount AAxx (default 4bet) so otf he would stack-off any flush-only, you have only 15% HvR Equity against that and with the SPR 4 you mathematically still need 44% Allin-Equity to break-even. That's significant. I guess a 15% opening range would not change a lot. I would say: Token-cbet-fold your c-bet range, get it in with the nutflush only, eventually check-call non-nutflushes like your's. It sounds weird to play so tight with so much money invested already, but I think the book is right, tight is right. Galphond says, dont feel committed to the money already in the pot, the reasons you 3bet-pre does not count anymore when the flop is basiclly resetting the game. If your equity RvsR or playability is bad check-fold more often.

      Turn/River: If you think villains is capable of bluffing you have to check-calldown hands like the one you have. On very static boards like this Frequencies are more important. Once villain calls your cbet, you can give up later on without flush. I've been never ahead in any mono 3bp even very aggressive player they just dont float-call to bluff-shove later on.

      PS: When villain is so bad as described by Kyyberi gii with crap ofc you should stack-off any flush beyond SPR4. But that does not match my experience against the average regulars at zoom. But I player lower than PLO25 and from the times I played I can remember they were much more loose-aggressive at PLo25.
    • efkay
      efkay
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      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 4,012
      @mascherano: you 3bet pre if yo have read like UTG is opening 50%? also consider rake at plo25. I think Jnandez is constantly telling that in high rake enviroment limping and/or not reraising out of the blinds is leak
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
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      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 11,811
      In low spr situations 1/3 sizing is fine on certain boards, especially when opponents are the better ones.

      If we want to exploit opponent more, I would bet here half a pot. I wouldn't induce a bluff with smaller sizing cos the board is Axx and we 3bet pre. Opponent is not making moves, but at micros will call with some non-flush hands. And smaller flushes call 3 streets always.
    • Mascherano95
      Mascherano95
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      Joined: 09.10.2010 Posts: 414
      @efkay: when u say loose-aggressive i have sth like 30/24 in mind not necessarily 50%. What you said with rake is a contradiction: When you are in high rake environment it is advised to FOLD MORE in the blinds. Because u only pay the rake when u enter a pot postflop and marginal 3bp's are rake-heavy. In Jnandez University he says that overfolding the bb or playing to passive is a leak in general but there are different styles possible afaik. Tbh I am often uncertain in defending aswell. Pum says when villain steals over 50% you can resteal with a range around 7.5% oop which equals QQ+ds, A anyCCCds middlings connected paired alss, ABBsa, Amiddling CCCsa, K/Q+ middling CCC, NNNNss.. that still would not contain a hand like KJ97ds which would be marginal unless you 3-bet sth like 10-15%. Idk what 3b% you aim to have there, but I would stay tight at the beginning. On the other hand when you are IN position, you 3-bet range goes up to 6%, 8%, 12% should go up more quickly when villain openraises loose.

      @Kyyberi: Yes I use the 1/3 sizing vs regs and aggro fishes, it works great.
      I would bet here half a pot. I wouldn't induce a bluff with smaller sizing cos the board is Axx and we 3bet pre. Opponent is not making moves, but at micros will call with some non-flush hands. And smaller flushes call 3 streets always.
      ... sounds good. I must try that out.^^
    • efkay
      efkay
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      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 4,012
      I post hand here since I had this discussion in my mind today when following happened:

      Party, $0.10/$0.25 Pot Limit Omaha Cash, 6 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      SB: $25 (100 bb)
      BB: $8.97 (35.9 bb)
      UTG: $44.90 (179.6 bb)
      Hero (MP): $28.96 (115.8 bb)
      CO: $19.16 (76.6 bb)
      BTN: $37.44 (149.8 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is MP with :9d: :6d: :Jc: :Ac:
      UTG folds, Hero raises to $0.85, CO raises to $2.90, 2 folds, BB calls $2.65, Hero calls $2.05

      Flop: ($8.80) :4d: :Ad: :5d: (3 players)
      BB checks, Hero bets $6.52, CO raises to $16.26 and is all-in, BB folds, Hero calls $9.74

      Turn: ($41.32) :Qd: (2 players, 1 is all-in)
      River: ($41.32) :3s: (2 players, 1 is all-in)

      at I think preflop is fine thanks to BB overcall. with spr2 I dont want to give possible aces a free card so I decided to bet. against the raise I see a chance he raises aces and any flushes. I have 25% against $3B8I:AA,dd

      ok? or maybe bet small and leave room for folds?
    • Mascherano95
      Mascherano95
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      Joined: 09.10.2010 Posts: 414
      P: The board and SPR's are similar but the ranges are different. CO has a wider, uncapped IP 3betting range here including higher flushes and many nutflush combos, your range will be tight and more polarized (less sets low flushes). BB can have many hands, he is probably not a good player. Yes I would call preflop too, with the doublesuit you will pick up good equity often enough to keep playing flops.

      F: If CO has a balanced 3-bet range he will have more possible hands than just AA including higher flushes, my default play is that I check-raise or stab here with a tokenbet (same situation as above, static flop and low spr) with nutflush & second-nutsflush and (barely bluff cause it's 3way and swp) and then shove pot any nonpaired turn. So your hand is mediocre strong I would check it and play turn&rivers where u can pick up bluffs or valuebet when nobody shows aggression. Even the fish will unlikely go allin when he does not have a flush but will be lured into playing trash when the flop got checked through. But that depends, some fish also go broke with trash like pair hands when SPR <2 but remember there is a player behind you making things more complicated and the fish can have higher flushes too. You must adapt your play to all hands possible: the ranges of all involved and not to a single portion of a single player's range which is AA. Once you bet, you cannot fold it anymore. CO will have indeed AA often here but I dont think it is the best play with your specific hand.

      With the SPR being at 2 I agree the spot is very very very marginal to just get in all flushes but the concepts I mentioned in my previous post still hold imo. Between SPR 1.5 and SPR2 there is a very big difference. For the first spot you need 37,5% allin-equity to brak-even hu and for the second it's 40% which is quite a difference. The likelihood someone having a flush is also higher 3-way than hu. So I go allin with all flushes and sets when the SPR is beyond 1.5.
    • efkay
      efkay
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      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 4,012
      I agree with thinking against most of all hands not just a portion but sometimes thats not that easy with 18 sec timebank :P
    • Mascherano95
      Mascherano95
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      Joined: 09.10.2010 Posts: 414
      yes you dont do that ingame but afterwards in a hand analysis. Ingame I try to have the approximate ranges in mind and then check it afterwards if my thoughts were reasonable.