Donking or not ?

    • OlivierLu
      OlivierLu
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2007 Posts: 5,524
      Hello all !

      I came here to find some background on donking friendly flop in 3-handed pot (or more).

      I've analysed one hand for the french community. I've argued the hand was well played. Hero missed his c/r flop, then bet turn, and finally made a "thin" river-raise against someone who looked quite passive. Here is the hand:

      Known players:
      Position:
      Stack
      SB:
      $19,90
      Hero:
      $29,55
      MP2:
      $6,75

      0,5/1 Fixed-Limit Hold'em (6 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: PokerStrategy Elephant 0.67 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

      Preflop: Hero is BB with T:heart: , K:heart:
      MP2 raises, 3 folds, SB calls, Hero calls.

      Flop: (6,00 SB) T:spade: , 3:heart: , K:diamond: (3 players)
      SB checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks.

      Turn: (3,00 BB) 2:spade: (3 players)
      SB checks, Hero bets, MP2 folds, SB calls.

      River: (5,00 BB) Q:club: (2 players)
      SB bets, Hero raises, ...

      There was a lot of remarks on the flop play. Some argued that Hero should donk the flop. I don't like that play cauz a check by Hero will then be interpreted as a clear weakness (c/c or c/f), as there are no more hands to c/r with. I've realized I've almost never play a donkbet in a 3-handed pot on the flop.

      So here are my questions : Do you use flop donkbet in 3-handed pot? If yes, what kind of hand/flop do you donk? and if you use donkbet, do you c/r flop sometimes?

      My point of view is I will donkbet against 2 players ONLY if I know they will both check behind. This is so uncommon that it almost never occured before.
  • 10 replies
    • BDL
      BDL
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.01.2008 Posts: 361
      I think that because conti-bet is so standard there is really no reason to donk the flop.

      I'd love to hear the reasons for donking the flop but basically you will get raised by a lot of hands for a lot of reasons (including free cards). So the way I see it, when he wants a free card (after failed conti) make him 3-bet for it and pay the maximum for his draw. When he wants to monster-line you: you check-raising, getting called and then he check raises the turn is much cheaper than you bet-3bet the flop, donk the turn into a check raise.

      My thoughts anyways, curious what others have to say.
    • gape0000
      gape0000
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.08.2007 Posts: 628
      I will donkbet sometimes if i want to trap the fish or LAG's between me and the preflop raiser.

      Lets say that the flop is really dry and i hit the set and there is a fish between us and i know they dont really have too many live outs against me.
      Since i dont really want the fish to fold overcards i donk bet and that way if the OR raises both of us i can decide then to 3bet on flop directly or wait for the turn check/raise and get even more value for my hand.

      That way i also under represent my hand so i might get raised on some cards on turn that connect with either of them (an A or K maybe).

      As for this hand goes i would play it excatly the same as Hero although it would be ugly to get 3betted on river but just calling seems weak :)
    • BDL
      BDL
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.01.2008 Posts: 361
      Good idea about trapping players gape.
    • gape0000
      gape0000
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.08.2007 Posts: 628
      Tnx, i think its actually pretty strong move and its not really easy to read if u dont overuse it , it also helps to mix up your game if nothing else.
    • ciRith
      ciRith
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      Hi OlivierLu,

      I know a good reason for a donkbet! He checked behind on the flop. You gave him a freecard. ;)

      Well the only problem is that you can't know that he will check behind.
      Looking at his continuation bet flop value could save you from losng a bet. But to be honest I wouldn't care about this value here (and not after 36 hands). The flop is perfect for a continuationbet.

      Well a nice example when it's useful to delete the following action.
      Post the hand without the check behind and I think 95% say check/raise. :)

      Well played. (Sorry for being sarcastic at the beginning. ^^)
    • opal99
      opal99
      Black
      Joined: 05.02.2008 Posts: 8,270
      One example of flop donk bet:

      Hero is BB with A :heart: 9 :heart: , CO openraised, BU (LAG / maniac) 3bet, SB folded.. Hero decided to coldcall against 2 bad players.

      Flop is K :heart: J :diamond: 4 :heart:

      Hero donks, CO calls, BU raises, etc. This way we get the most with equity advantage on the flop by donkbetting.
      It can be done similarly here:

      Hero is SB with T :club: 9 :club:

      UTG limped, CO raised/isoraised, Hero coldcalled, BB called, UTG called

      Flop gives us FD or is rainbow and gave us OESD. Donk bet is the best you can do here!
    • Cakara
      Cakara
      Black
      Joined: 10.11.2007 Posts: 139
      Sry am I only one who thinks that donking flop is standard line here.
      We could expect a raise from MP2 and knock out SB and his gutshots
      I donk a lot 3+ way flops when I want to knock out weak draws with help of pre flop raiser.
    • opal99
      opal99
      Black
      Joined: 05.02.2008 Posts: 8,270
      the question is whether you want to knock out weak draw here ;)
    • Cakara
      Cakara
      Black
      Joined: 10.11.2007 Posts: 139
      SB has value to call 1sb on flop but to pay 2sb would be mathematically incorrect and i would profit from his lose calls
    • ciRith
      ciRith
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      You lose to much value as they would call a lot against the odds for 1 SB but not for 2.
      He will often make the continuation bet with A-high or a pocketpair but might even fold to the donkbet.