JJ how is it profitable ?

    • Vikshrasss
      Vikshrasss
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      Joined: 10.03.2009 Posts: 38
      hi,
      Can someone show me how do you work out JJ preflop raise/push profitability ?

      Because I was thinking of way but just coulnd't think of it...

      I raise JJ preflop somene rasies I push.
      If he has any of the A, K, Q, he wins if I dont hit. That means he's got 11 outs I have 2.
      If he has AA,KK,QQ. I have 2 outs he has 48
      If he has any other pair he has the same chances as I do if I dont hit as well.

      Now you going to say, how many blinds do you win when nobody call you with JJ.
      Try to raise in NL10 at party, chances that 1 oppnonet is going to just CALL I think less than 10%.

      So that's me theory.

      Someone else has something against that ?
  • 19 replies
    • xponentx
      xponentx
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      Joined: 10.02.2008 Posts: 341
      You say if he has AA,KK,QQ you have 2 outs, he has 48...

      Yet you say if he has any A,K,Q, he has 11 outs you have 2.

      Actually, if he has any A,K,Q he has a maximum of 6 outs for a higher pair, and you have every other card in the deck. You're contradicting yourself. If you have JJ and he has AK, you are nearly even money, if he has only 1 overcard to yours you're in great shape.

      JJ is not a brilliant hand, but you're certainly ahead against the vast majority of hands.
    • andyb43
      andyb43
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      Joined: 23.07.2008 Posts: 903
      I would fold if re-raised when holding JJ.........not sure what the SSS charts say on that as I play BSS

      Villian can't have A,K & Q, therefore he does not have 11 outs. He has to hit not you. You already have a pair, he needs to hit one unless he has AA KK or QQ in which case you are way behind.

      If he has a lower pair, you are way ahead.

      Your theories seem to discount draws. eg a flop w A K Q gives you 4 more outs even assuming villian has hit top pair

      I see you posted another thread concerning poor performance with AK as well. I feel you don't really have a grasp of poker theory ATM. Study and pratice, it will come :P
    • Schnitzelfisch
      Schnitzelfisch
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      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 4,952
      you fail at math. JJ beats all pocket pairs, is a coinflip vs. 2 overcards and underdog vs. AA, KK, QQ. i'm too lazy to go into the outs for you, but you definitely should read some articles regarding odds and outs...
    • LuborC
      LuborC
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      Joined: 20.04.2008 Posts: 1,243
      JJ is actually slight favorite agains two overcards (as is any other pocket pair). You can think of this situation as a coinflip or 50-50 though since in reality it's only like 51-49 or something in favor of JJ. So AK,AQ,KQ have 6 outs to suck out on you but you still have 2 outs to redraw if they do.

      JJ is underdog against AA, KK or QQ obviously. You're still gonna win aout 20% of the times against these hands.

      Against Ax, Kx and Qx where x is lower than J you are around 70% favorite because they are drawing to 3 outs and you still have your 2 outs to redraw (the exact percentrage depends on whether their cards are suited and how many straight possiblities they have).

      Since you are also the guy who thinks that AK is not profitable I suggest you download Pokerstrategy Equilator from the download section here and work with it for a while. Also visit some coachings.
    • Dragar
      Dragar
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      Joined: 09.09.2008 Posts: 2,214
      Originally posted by andyb43
      I would fold if re-raised when holding JJ.........not sure what the SSS charts say on that as I play BSS
      Don't do that....
      Villain can raise you with AK, AQ, KQ, etc.

      C-bet on flop where you have overpair, if he raises you then you can probably fold it depending on the board.

      JJ is to weak to fold to 3-bet pre
    • andyb43
      andyb43
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      Joined: 23.07.2008 Posts: 903
      Out of position and ploughing on with JJ..........Hand of Doom
    • Vikshrasss
      Vikshrasss
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      Joined: 10.03.2009 Posts: 38
      That's that kind of answer I was looking for. Thanks !


      Just saying that I'm unlucky and 51% for me doesnt do any good.
      Out of 42 properly played AK. after pushing I won 17 and lost 25.
      Out of 17 JJ - won 7 lost 10

      Thats 11 BI lost on these two. of course there were times when i won the blinds and in the long term it would lead to profit. Just don't like the swings and start wondering what going on..
    • kingdippy2008
      kingdippy2008
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      Joined: 30.08.2008 Posts: 2,107
      Originally posted by Vikshrasss
      That's that kind of answer I was looking for. Thanks !


      Just saying that I'm unlucky and 51% for me doesnt do any good.
      Out of 42 properly played AK. after pushing I won 17 and lost 25.
      Out of 17 JJ - won 7 lost 10

      Thats 11 BI lost on these two. of course there were times when i won the blinds and in the long term it would lead to profit. Just don't like the swings and start wondering what going on..
      17 times is absolutely nothing. When you have at least 500 come back and tell us it isnt working
    • Vikshrasss
      Vikshrasss
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      Joined: 10.03.2009 Posts: 38
      i think I might not make it till 500. when you get your 50$ starting capital, you loose a bit before you learn the strategy on stupid mistakes lets say 10 BI and you hit so called downswing of X BI and the next thing you know your'e broke.
      Will I invest my own money for such a strategy ? don't think so.
      Ok i'we got bonuses cuming up, but after i get them I dont think im going to stick with SSS.
      The problem is that i love poker. And I used to belevie and made everyone else believe that it is not just a game of luck. Start to doubt that.
    • Dragar
      Dragar
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      Joined: 09.09.2008 Posts: 2,214
      Uhm its definatly not a game of luck.

      Mathematically it cannot be luck... its impossible to be luck. Its the same as investing on the stock market.

      If you have a diversified portfolio you will eliminate or be close to eliminating unsytematic risk. Your systematic risks will give you profits if you chose the right investments (do not want to get into the math).

      Unsystematic risk = variance in poker
      Systematic risk = pushing your money in when your ahead
      Eliminating unsystematic risk/ diversifying your portfolio = playing a lot of hands

      Over time variance goes away or is very minimal.

      There is no luck involved given an infinite sample size.

      I also lost my 50$ starting capital. Doing good now though.
    • MrMardyBum
      MrMardyBum
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      Joined: 14.03.2009 Posts: 2,206
      Works ok-ish for me on SSS

    • STR82ACE
      STR82ACE
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      Joined: 01.10.2008 Posts: 389
      The Hand from Hell!!!

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP9CBtSW0kA
    • mishkagg
      mishkagg
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      Joined: 29.07.2008 Posts: 1,354
      oh god, that clip made me laugh so hard!

      maybe pocket jacks are tough to play...
    • STR82ACE
      STR82ACE
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      Joined: 01.10.2008 Posts: 389
      Every time I watch it, I roll from laughing.

      So true.
    • Dragar
      Dragar
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      Joined: 09.09.2008 Posts: 2,214
      This is how you play with JJ:

      $0.1/$0.2 No Limit Holdem
      6 players
      Converted at weaktight.com

      Stacks:
      UTG BoldonDan79 ($14.00)
      UTG+1 Hero ($66.28)
      CO TheRedPainter ($10.58)
      BTN chaz111 ($14.72)
      SB peonme ($3.80)
      BB Hariolf2 ($20.42)

      Pre-flop: ($0.30, 6 players) Hero is UTG+1 J:spade: J:club:
      1 fold, Hero raises to $0.80, 1 fold, chaz111 calls $0.80, 1 fold, Hariolf2 calls $0.60

      Flop: T:heart: 7:heart: 4:diamond: ($2.50, 3 players)
      Hariolf2 bets $2.50, Hero raises to $7, chaz111 folds, Hariolf2 folds

      Final Pot: $12

      Hero wins $11.63 ( won +$3.83 )
      chaz111 lost -$0.80
      Hariolf2 lost -$3.30

      (In my head I am going: please fold, please fold haha)

      Yeah its a freaking annoying hand overall haha
    • Jaissica
      Jaissica
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      Joined: 10.02.2009 Posts: 1,385
      The big problem with 99-JJ is overplay. People can get sucked into thinking they hold the nuts on a rag board and shove the range straight into AA/KK's lap.
    • dirtyibis
      dirtyibis
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      Joined: 20.01.2008 Posts: 51
      this talk of poker being luck is rubbish. JJ and AK are two of the easiest hands to play, AK being the third strongest hand (I always put this hand just ahead of QQ, mostly on playability), or 4th, if you like, making JJ the 5th strongest starting hand. Youre analysing these things and saying JJ is not profitable. When playing with fish at the low limits how can the 3rd and 5th strongest starting hands not be profitable????!! what hands do you play otherwise? only AA and KK?! you're just seeing a little variance, which is fine, happens all month long sometimes for me but it evens out. if results continue to go against you then you need to look at your strategy and how these hands are played out, which is what everyone seems to be telling you. dont give up
    • alejandrosh
      alejandrosh
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      Joined: 02.07.2008 Posts: 4,346
      too bad I don't have an enough sample size and most of it is mtt ... although I have my jacks in 2bb/100 yay!

      and J7o is giving me more money than AA ... gotta love low 9k sample size and mtt :D
    • SheepMoose
      SheepMoose
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      Joined: 15.01.2009 Posts: 854
      Originally posted by Jaissica
      The big problem with 99-JJ is overplay. People can get sucked into thinking they hold the nuts on a rag board and shove the range straight into AA/KK's lap.
      This is true. JJ is profitable if you know your opponent, and know his betting moves with certain hands.
      If you can make some good reads then JJ is profitable too. There's a video of Hasenbraten playing JJ. Even with a King and a Queen on the board he manages to read his opponent perfectly and make the right moves, turns out his opponent called down with pocket 4's so Hasenbraten made a great play there.

      You just have to really know what to do, when, and against whom.