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ICM always applies?

    • purpleshoes21
      Joined: 23.04.2008 Posts: 100
      For a 9 or 6 person sit and go, Should I always use the ICM and push or fold accordingly, or is it sometimes more profitable to just fold. For example, in a 6 person sit and go with 3 people left, there must be certain times when it is better to just fold since you are on the bubble.
  • 4 replies
    • Andjing
      Joined: 16.04.2008 Posts: 1,240
      Yes, sometimes ICM must be abandonned to make the best play. For instance sometimes its necessary to make a -EV push to avoid getting blinded out.
    • LuborC
      Joined: 20.04.2008 Posts: 1,243
      ICM as a concept has some limitations. One of the biggest is as Andjing already said not taking into account future development at the table like you having to play the blinds which are already really big in a few hands and stuff like that. That Is a good spot to let go of the ICM and push way looser (but still reasonably loose).
      You mentioned folding more on the bubble. There is no need to do that. You still use the ICM on the bubble because it DOES take the bubble in account when calculating the best play.
      There is a difference between the ICM concept and some ranges that the ICM trainer (which you probably use I guess) teaches you. With ICM the decision is calculated based on other players' ranges and the payout structure of the tournament. The ICM trainer has no way of knowing what the exact opponent you're playing against right now plays like (or what his ranges are) so it just assigns him the best possible ranges for him in that spot - in other words assumes he plays perfect. That is never the case, though. Especially on lowstakes. Therefore there sometimes is difference between the optiomal ICM play and the play ICM trainer tells you is the best. The difference is ussually not great and you will learn to adapt your ranges to different opponents with some experience.
    • Nunki
      Joined: 25.10.2006 Posts: 865
      Originally posted by purpleshoes21
      or is it sometimes more profitable to just fold.

      The ICM is just a formulaic means of evaluating the real worth (in $$'s) of your tournament chips. It ONLY takes into account relative stacksizes and payout structure. It is therefore NOT a perfect model (see Andjing's post above for one example).

      ICM calculators/trainers that use unexploitable ranges thankfully have limited real-world significance. For example, if everyone played unexploitably in a $10+$1 game then everyones ROI would be -10%. People tend not to play unexploitably though which allows the possibility of profit. In order to maximally exploit our exploitable opponents it is therefore necessary to deviate from unexploitable play.

      The first and most necessary adjustment you need to make is to push much tighter on the bubble when there is a loose player still in the hand. Have a look at SNGEGT (freeware) and play with pushing/calling ranges and you will see that loose players on the bubble will cost you $$'s if you shove too light. The players not in the hand simply gain by folding.
    • viewer88
      Joined: 19.04.2008 Posts: 5,545
      someone make a sticky about this ffs ^^