Can't get to the end of it

    • mchaggis
      mchaggis
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.09.2006 Posts: 157
      A few days ago I switched from 0.25/0.5 to 0.5/1. The first two days were ok. I played my game and I was winning like before. BUT.
      Things have changed. In the past two days I lost 110BB.
      Sets beaten by unbelievable straights, backdoor flushes (64s and such), ...
      Alright, I can control myself and my self-discipline is good so even when losing I can just rebuy and play my game.
      The problem is that that's happened before. I jumped the limits before and the same thing happened. Good first days and then the fall. When I switch back to lower limmit I easily mantain a winning rate around 4-5 BB/100 (I also had a great downswing at this limit but I got everything back.)

      I've read the guides several times, studied them, read Lee's book (I'll buy some other books in the near future) and I think my game is improving very well. But it's just not happening. I've won about 600BB on .25/.50 and lost 300 on .5/1.

      The same thing is happening to my neighbour, who's also studdied PS's articles and we talk alot about em so we understand em better.

      I did think of some possible solutions, but bombing Canada would probably end my poker career as they have no wireless internet in prisons overhere.

      The other option was, that u must firstly get the "authority" at the limit. The players are more or less the same and an option would be that when they "get to know you" they start to believe you that you do have a hand and don't call a capped preflop with 68o. (or 9To just to get a backdoor straight).

      I'm defo not quiting but wome suggestions would come handy. It's possible that I'm just unlucky atm, but I'd like to hear what would the other possibilities be (putting a possible bad play aside as I'm definitely playin "better" than 90% of the players there).

      This could aswell be taken as a half-ranting half-self-pittying thread ;)
  • 24 replies
    • mchaggis
      mchaggis
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.09.2006 Posts: 157
      I also checked some stats now.

      All the players with "normal" FlopSeen% are 20-30BB down. The only players with positive results are the ones that see about 35% of flops. I play FR.
    • Stefan1000
      Stefan1000
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.01.2006 Posts: 1,649
      Hi McChaggis,

      First of all let me say something else. I saw you at the coaching regular. You are posting sample hands regular. You are reading books. You have a friend you can talk about poker. That is all great. Keep that up and the question is not if you will be successful, it is only when you will have a break through.

      But anyway no matter how hard you practice things like this will happen over and over again.
      Don't forget: climbing up a limit always means in general facing better opponents. Although the skill difference from 0.25/0.5 to 0.5/1 is not that big so i think you just had some really bad suckouts.

      But the worst thing that can happen to a poker player is that when you have a downswing like this, you automatical say that it is just bad luck.

      Do me a favor and have a look at this article: Professional Attitude

      So here is something not written yet in our articles but what everybody should do: A session review!

      When i play I write down all hands i am not sure about. When i am finished ill start to look at these hands and post hands i need help about.

      You will have situations like this all over your career. The only thing you can do to make sure it is really a downswing keep on working on your game.
    • yooraps
      yooraps
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2005 Posts: 353
      actually i think this article about self-control and prof. attitude is very realistic......


      but nevertheless I have the same problem, not being able to beat the 0,5/1 limit... reaching now 10.000 hands with -1,4 BB/100hands

      it's a bit frustrating to see opponents playing random hands ( 50 vpip and higher reducing my bankroll) and what is more....it happens consistenly that I lose money to those opponents....


      i wondered what is the reason.......when I am in the pot with them.... when they win a hand its often a big pot hitting the river or a miracle turn card, especially when I have a strong hands like sets, or top two pair..........they are simply calling down everything what should be very nice for me, but if they don*t raise their nuts, you think your hand is better and you bet......and that makes it expensive...... but as I look at the results.......I win a little bit money from the much better players......a loose it to the >50vpip opponents......

      quite frustrating........as I'm sure I have a better understanding of the game than they have...... using SHC, ORC and thinking about odds and outs and all the stuff......
    • Blinzler
      Blinzler
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.03.2005 Posts: 7,456
      10000 hands really aren't a very large sample size and being down 140bb also is not really dramatic, things like that will happen to you very often and even more dramatic (-140bb in 1000 hands, 50+k breakeven stretches) and sometimes are only variance and if you keep on improving your game you generally will succeed and be a winning player.
    • ciRith
      ciRith
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      Originally posted by Blinzler
      10000 hands really aren't a very large sample size and being down 140bb also is not really dramatic, things like that will happen to you very often and even more dramatic (-140bb in 1000 hands, 50+k breakeven stretches) and sometimes are only variance and if you keep on improving your game you generally will succeed and be a winning player.

      50+k break even happens really that often? i am 1,3bb/100 over 40k hands and said to myself that i suck :/
    • Stefan1000
      Stefan1000
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.01.2006 Posts: 1,649
      @yooraps

      What could be the reason for your 140bb downswing.

      a) mainly bad play by your side
      b) mainly bad luck

      The Problem:It is hard without a lot of experience to judge whether its a) or b)

      Most of the time it is also c).

      c) a mixture between bad luck and bad play (50/50).

      What can you do:

      Only one thing:

      Try to work on your game. Now more then ever before, because now you have a good reason to work on your game.

      The three keys to success are the same over the next decades:

      1) WORK with the articles. Make small summaries from the content, make a summary from the summary.

      2) Session Review: Note every hand you are not sure about. Post every hand you are not sure about after your sessions.

      3) Visit as much coachings as possible. Blinzler is doing an excellent job especially for the beginners, because he is explaining his moves so everybody can understand them.

      Best regards,
      Stefan
    • yooraps
      yooraps
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2005 Posts: 353
      yes stefan1000

      I think you're absolutely right.

      I guess I'm pretty sure, my game has some costly leaks, so let's put the bad luck aside.
      Bad luck is an excuse for everything. So I'm not looking for something or someone to blame for my results, it's just I feel not sure how to find out where the weaknesses are.

      Bad luck seems just to forcen the bad game. I often wondered what might be the reason, why a session that started bad is only rarely turning into a winning one...... i guess it is the emotional stability that is not strong enough, what results in overplaying strong hands against bad players....


      On the other hand I have winning sessions with 3 BB/100 hands....
      so the volatilaty of the game is definetively to high......

      What I meant is the phenomen, when I look at my poker tracker stats, that players with by far too high vpips and wsds win money from me. That is something I didn't expect at all, not with a sample size of 10.000 hands

      Even with an "average" play I should beat those bad players, shouldn`t I? I mean the edge from a much better preflop play is huge.......
    • Stefan1000
      Stefan1000
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.01.2006 Posts: 1,649
      Actualy i can't tell you something about your game, because of course i have never seen you play.

      But 0.5/1 is propably one of the first obstacles in your poker carreer.

      Like Blinzler already said:

      -10.000 is a very small sample size not telling a lot about your true hourly winrate

      - being down 140bb means nothing it will happen very often. get used to it

      - i could go and play 0.5/1.0 and the same could happen to me or Blinzler

      - Poker is always up and down.

      The whole variance at poker is ofte a reason why people stop playing poker. I know a mathematical genius, who's knowledge about poker was much much bigger then mine but he quit because he wasn't able to handle the ups and downs of poker.

      What could help!

      a)
      I don't know what you ve read already. But sooner or later you can start to work with Equity and Poker Stove. This helps a lot to know that you were a 5 to 1 favorite on the Flop (for example) and you just got a bad beat on the river.
      This is one way to judge if your hand was bad play or just bad luck.

      b)
      In general one could say the more aggressive you are playing the more your variance will be. So perhaps you are overplaying some hands were you are already beaten.


      Best regards,
      Stefan
    • yooraps
      yooraps
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2005 Posts: 353
      yeah....again i think you're 99% right..... (except the fact that you or blinzler would loose 1,4 BB/ hands in 10.000 hands on 0,5/ 1 ... :-))) )

      the good thing is, the more badbeats I suffer, the more I feel challenged to work on my game, so that I came to the conclusion, that I have to "learn" poker systematically....... making now a timetable beginning on 01.12. when to work on the game and which things to do to improve it just concentrating on improving the game rather than " having fun" by just playing .........

      so let`s see what the future brings.......
    • Blinzler
      Blinzler
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.03.2005 Posts: 7,456
      except the fact that you or blinzler would loose 1,4 BB/ hands in 10.000 hands on 0,5/ 1 ... :-)))


      sure?



      those are all my hands from my coachings :(
      i really hope i am not playing that bad there, this however shouldn't keep you from improving your game, it is just to show how much variance really sometimes matters.
      Best thing in DS is to try to improve because you always have some leaks and in DS you are more willing to find them.
    • yooraps
      yooraps
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2005 Posts: 353
      well..... I guess that in a coaching you neither do play your A- game nor do you make a intensive table selection..... it is just a idea, but the negative development of the curve could be due to the average skill, that has changed till the Americans got kicked out? and you don't change tables if a table gets unattractive, do you? by the way that was the time when I moved up to the limit and was confronted with tables full of PS-players......and exactly at that time I lost big.........so maybe I didn't have the bonus of a preflop edge with the SHC anymore......and my postflop skill were too weak.....

      your results:
      understandable, because the coaching - and therefore "correct play" - is in the focus , not the maximazing of the bankroll, right?


      maybe it sounds a bit hard, but I want to avoid any illusion that there are soooo many reasons the results are not like it should be. So I think it is by far the most helpful measure to concentrate on the own mistakes.........

      The percentage of "beginners" on the micro limits, who blame bad luck and a downswing for losing on a limit is so high, so that it is impossible that 90% of the beginners are a victim of bad luck and a downswing.......so that I don't want to refer on that... it makes it just easier to loose....
    • Stefan1000
      Stefan1000
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.01.2006 Posts: 1,649
      Absolutly.

      If you can focus on that, just try to play every hand as good as possible.

      And always work on your game. Try to find leaks/mistakes and then try to avoid them.

      Best regards,
      Stefan
    • sismis
      sismis
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.10.2006 Posts: 352
      mchaggis go play no limit 0.02/0.04 with 2$ (minimum risk) for couple of hours. NL forces you to read table and other players cards in better way. Such low limit with loose opponents also teaches you that "only" top pair is many times not enough to win showdown (if it is enough then it is not very profitable). And in limit poker with low limit you need to win showdown most of times.
      to be honest i think rake is to high for a decent player to make profit with such unpredictable opponents in limit poker.
    • mchaggis
      mchaggis
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.09.2006 Posts: 157
      Originally posted by sismis
      mchaggis go play no limit 0.02/0.04 with 2$ (minimum risk) for couple of hours. NL forces you to read table and other players cards in better way. Such low limit with loose opponents also teaches you that "only" top pair is many times not enough to win showdown (if it is enough then it is not very profitable). And in limit poker with low limit you need to win showdown most of times.
      to be honest i think rake is to high for a decent player to make profit with such unpredictable opponents in limit poker.
      so ill play like you? cap preflop with T9o :rolleyes:
    • sismis
      sismis
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.10.2006 Posts: 352
      i dont remember that happening but if there are 4 other ppl in game then yes i would call up to the cap :)
      ppl are raising with A+anything at 0.1/0.2 :P

      edit: maybe there was just some guy at the table that raises all the time no matter what he has. that happened to me few times too...
    • frib
      frib
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.08.2006 Posts: 3,268
      So, just 4 fun and b/c I'm bored I'll post in the English board :D

      I also made it to .5/1 a few days ago, but unlike I'm doing great :D


      I wouldn't change to no limit for just a few hours if I was you. Keep focused on limit, and try to find the leaks in your game. Though I've never really played it (only read the articles) I think No-Limit is totally different. If you really want to change, do it, but work yourself through the articles and then don't just switch between FL and NL.

      Playing against any2-raisers is definitely not easy, but you can make a lot of money against those guys if you just wait for the real good hands.
    • DE4DLY
      DE4DLY
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.01.2007 Posts: 109
      Hi all.
      I never liked Holdem before. I loved 7 card stud freeroll tournaments.
      Just joined here a few days ago and now loving it!
      I play limit but have been slowly and steadily loosing, which I am not used to as I normally win over a short time at stud. I have found this thread very encouraging.
      I accidently joined a NL game a couple of days ago and didn't notice until I was +20BB in a short time. (normally I have slow positive periods and sharp negative ones where I loose everything I just made.)
      I left quick before I lost it all. I think lack of discipline and player reading in NL must be loads more costly so I figure I need more experience as I am not winning in limit at the mo. However, I did find the experience very beneficial and my game has tightened up.
      BTW, I think that the fact pokerstrategy start you out with a $50 bankroll really helps with the discipline.
      The feeling that I am playing with "their money" makes me much more likely to follow their advice, the SHC rules. Every time I don't follow it I not only regret it but can usually learn from it to.
      I think you have to be determined to improve your game. Just playing lots and waiting to get better isn't good enough. (which is what I have been doing to be honest)
      anyway, blah blah.... Hi guys! (and ladies...)
      D.
    • aciddrop
      aciddrop
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.10.2006 Posts: 1,519
      Welcome Deadly. Yep, it is important to follow the SHC really closely. This will get you into the right hands with the right odds. After that, of course, there comes post flop play, turn play and river play :tongue: which will really test you out! But luckily, there are great articles available in the strategy section, and great teachers full of advice about your game. So posting hands, any hands, in the forums will really get you some helpful feedback.

      I struggled a lot early, but finally got enough things straight in my head to be a profitable player so far. The most important thing I found and understood is that Poker is not results based learning. You can play brilliantly and lose a hand, and play really badly and win, because luck (or randomness) is such a large part of it. Understanding what is the correct play, regardless of the outcome, is the key to long term success, and there are a lot of people here prepared to help you with that. Fixed limit, in my opinion, will give you a great grounding in how to think.

      Anyway, enjoy your time, and I hope to see you around the boards more.
    • Stefan1000
      Stefan1000
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.01.2006 Posts: 1,649
      Hi Deadly,

      welcome here at our PokerStrategy board.

      Especially the beginning can be sometimes annoying. Or better say, learning poker can be sometimes really annoying. ;)

      You are reading, posting sample hands and visiting the live coachings and you invest lots of time into this stuff but sometimes you don't see the direct improvement in the terms of cash(your bankroll).

      But you are on a good way. The first thing you have to realise is that there is a lot to learn. And although you will sometimes of course face downswings. Never ever blame the cards for your results. Always ask yourself if their is still something you could improve, like yo are doing here.

      So have fun and of course don't hesitate to ask if you have a question or you just feel the need to say something.

      Best regards,
      Stefan
    • 1
    • 2