Rigged?

    • Joronamo
      Joronamo
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.10.2008 Posts: 649
      Hi,

      We have all read constant rigged threads bla bla bla i am not trying to say anything new. Today was a pretty mediocre day, i lost $25 on NL5 and now i have $200 in my stars bankroll. Hence i am not broke, and i have stopped playing for the day (basic good BRM skills). That was the preface, now my question is how come everytime i am beating the rake by a long shot, a downswing hits and i end up losing my winnings and end up well behind the rake? I use PT3 and if you look at the winnings tab, my graph is up and down up and down, but what i dont understand is why everytime i am beating the rake, i get a huge downswing with cooler decks. Like today all of sudden i lose to a higher fullhouse, a higher flush and broadway straight losing to a flush. It seems when im winning, very few coolers happen, less bad beats and then when beating rake, i get this wall of bad luck so that Stars rake can catch up on me. It doesnt make sense. These lower fullhouses arent the donk ones where the board is 7J7JA and im holding a 7 and villain is holding a J, no im talking the board is J3793 and i push with 99 and villain is holding JJ - that sorta thing.

      My next question is, if you guys dont claim its rigged and that upswings and downswings are part of poker, why btoher playing? You are wasting countless hours winning $20 on NL5, you then lose $30 and then when $50 and just constantly make $10 profit intervals which is pittance in relation to time. Time is money! Why not work a steady job for much more? Sure you can work towards high stakes in poker where there is good money, but the time is takes to reach there and with all the losess as well...it just doesnt seem worth it.
  • 66 replies
    • andyb43
      andyb43
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.07.2008 Posts: 903
      Originally posted by Joronamo

      My next question is, if you guys dont claim its rigged and that upswings and downswings are part of poker, why btoher playing? You are wasting countless hours winning $20 on NL5, you then lose $30 and then when $50 and just constantly make $10 profit intervals which is pittance in relation to time. Time is money! Why not work a steady job for much more? Sure you can work towards high stakes in poker where there is good money, but the time is takes to reach there and with all the losess as well...it just doesnt seem worth it.
      This is very true............if you plan to play for a living. I play for fun and to improve. My wife laughs at me when I get excited cos I've won a $20 pot or whatever and I finish the 3 hour session $30 up ............and then reminds me how much I earn an hour.........

      It's all relative to what you want to acheive.
    • strat9
      strat9
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.02.2008 Posts: 511
      I'm not saying it is rigged, but it does seem that pokerstars is very streaky. Suckouts and bad beats and win streaks seem to happen with very little mixture. Often it seems that it is all or nothing. But usually there are other explanations for this (better players at certain tables, variance, tilt, etc). It is almost impossible to argue that it is rigger without another way to explain it and even more impossible to prove.
    • comingfulltilt
      comingfulltilt
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2009 Posts: 1
      Well I have 3 accounts I play on, Titan Poker, Fulltilt, and Pokerstars. I started with a bankroll of 10 dollars on each of them(Titan I started with 50), and I have the Pstars one up to 175 and the fulltilt at just under 125, but the TitanPoker one I felt was rigged for the longest time, because I would have major downswings, on that one, more often then not, and the other 2 sites at worse I would break even. I used to make excuses, that I did not like the layout, the players are more likely to get lucky because it felt on Titanpoker they play alot more loose., and also, I even had the theory that Titan was rigged cause when they deal the flop the cards "just appear". Truth is though, I think pyschologically, I was playing more to Titan standards and I adjusted my game to how the players play on there, and things have been going well. I do not think any of them are rigged, just for the simple fact, theres a reason there is fold buttons. You can drop a hand at any time, and so can your oppoenents . I guess my point is, when you start to feel its rigged, thats when you play looser or do not play the game your accustomed to playing. Just no matter what stick to your game plan that has made you successful. Downswings do happen as we all know, and a major part of the game, is knowing how to handle those losses and keeping your cool.
    • csnmf
      csnmf
      Global
      Joined: 22.11.2006 Posts: 444
      Doesn't take long, there have been quite a few people who have gone from NL25 to NL5000 within 6 months.

      Think about it this way you start off with $100 at NL5 using a 20 buy in rule for arguments sake, let say we win at 5ptbb/100 at every limit we play this means we win a buy in for every 1k hands we play.

      after 20k hands we are at NL10, after 30k hands we are at NL25, after 20k hands NL50, after 20k NL100, after 20k NL200, after 20K NL400 and so on and so forth so it is feasible to think using highly aggressive BRM to hit NL400 after 130k hands some people could play that many hands in 1 month.

      Considering i am averaging £2000 per month tax free at NL50 which is equivalent to close to a £40k per year normal job, and NL50 is a very low limit relatively and doesn't require a high skill level.
    • mikelstwe
      mikelstwe
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.08.2008 Posts: 156
      I can totally relate to the above mentioned statements and there is a reason for all of this: Pokerstars is imo the best place to play at simply because it is the biggest fish tank out there. Unfournately this is also the reason why you get more suckouts here. When player's ranges are all over the place naturally you'll get more bad beats than at a tighter poker room.

      But overall unless you're playing incorrect poker you will make more money in the long run. This is a fact you should console yourself with when faced with numerous badbeats (after you've established that you're playing correctly).

      I challenge anyone who honestly believes that stars (or any other poker site) is rigged, to collect at least 250k-500k hands in which bad beats occur more frequently than they should. This database should be made available so that people can judge for themselves if it is rigged or not.

      Of course none will answer this challenge as most of the people who claim that it is rigged use a sample size of less than 10k hands.

      Badbeats are hard to take but dealing with them is an essential poker skill which all sucessful players must possess.

      PS when you have a big upswing, print the graph out and stick it on your wall to remind you of why you love playing against donks!
    • kingdippy2008
      kingdippy2008
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.08.2008 Posts: 2,107
      Sorry why do you have to start a new thread to say that pokerstars is rigged? Ok we get it, youve had a few bad sessions, get on with it; switch sites; or quit poker. Btw NL5 on stars is easy. I dont think i had a loosing session tbh. Also i think i beat it with like a 50bb/100 winrate and now im moving to NL10. Ok i had an upswing for like 2 - 3k hands ^^

      Also not many people play poker to live. Its a hobbie and swings dont matter. Thats the thing about variance as well. Over 100k hands if will even out and you will be winning and a full time player has enough time to do this. Obv downswings can last longer or breakeven spells but still...
    • redskwerl
      redskwerl
      Black
      Joined: 03.03.2008 Posts: 3,802
      Okay I confess! I rigged Pokerstars.
    • alejandrosh
      alejandrosh
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.07.2008 Posts: 4,346
      of course is rigged. pokerstars is making so little money with rake that they need your $25 to avoid bankrupsy
    • Joronamo
      Joronamo
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.10.2008 Posts: 649
      alejrosh and kingdippy, this is not the first time i sensed arrogance from you guys at forums. I have a feeling you dont read the entire post and only pick parts which you can rebutt against. In case you did do this, let me spell it out for you, i clearly mentioned in the preface of this forum, that i had a bad session by losing $25. With basic BRM methods, i stopped playing for the day and closed the tables. Unlike most rigged threads where people complain after going broke, I am not broke and still have $200 which is more than comfortable for the limit im playing. So this isn;t a thread about the stars being rigged to take all your money, it is a thread asking why for half decent players, the rake catches up on them in downswings and upswings instead of a mixture? So next time you have something king shit to say, save your breath cause i couldnt give two fucks.

      Now for all the nice people out there, who may or not have agreed with me, but atleast replied in an educational manner...

      @ strat9: yes i dont understnad why it usually happens in streaks as opposed to a mixture.

      @coming fulltilt: I think if you turn off animation on every site, the cards just appear, thats just superstition on your part and has nothing to do with mathemtatics although you could be right but i hope not. Your point about the fold button, if you holding KK and your opponent has 86 and you both push preflop and you lose to runner runner straight, i would have like to see you go, hmm maybe i should have folded.

      @csmf: Your basically just stating how long it could take to reach high stakes in a utopian society where you never lose...which isnt really the point of this thread.
    • Joronamo
      Joronamo
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.10.2008 Posts: 649
      also quick question at csmf: Are online poker winning tax free if you withdraw to your bank account?
    • opal99
      opal99
      Black
      Joined: 05.02.2008 Posts: 8,270
      Originally posted by Joronamo
      @csmf: Your basically just stating how long it could take to reach high stakes in a utopian society where you never lose...which isnt really the point of this thread.
      ^ WRONG! ^

      csmf is right, because it's all about long time winrate. Who cares what happened yesterday or last week? If anyone does, he should work on his attitude before his poker skills..
      It doesnt really matter whether you have upswing or downswing, because the only thing you should look for is long term winrate - that's the difference between winner and looser.

      5ptbb/100 which was mentioned is NL BSS winrate for good player, so if you play 50k hands per month, you'll win 2500 ptbb per month on average. Sure, you can win only 1000 in april but you'll end with 4000 next month.. It's called variance :)
    • opal99
      opal99
      Black
      Joined: 05.02.2008 Posts: 8,270
      Originally posted by Joronamo
      also quick question at csmf: Are online poker winning tax free if you withdraw to your bank account?
      depends on country you live in
    • alejandrosh
      alejandrosh
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.07.2008 Posts: 4,346
      hey relax dude, kingdippy is a good guy ( aparently I'm not though :D )

      about (down)swigs:
      read this article : http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/psychology/135/ and this one Downswings: identifying, consequences and how to deal with them

      and try to make your post titles more clear in the future , you can't expect too many non sarcastical answers if you put rigged in it :rolleyes:
    • dnalloh
      dnalloh
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.02.2009 Posts: 53
      self-indulging responses are the norm for some. i learned that the hard way too. they claim to think these threads are too stupid to spend any time on, but then nonetheless they come into them anyway and comment. makes absolutely zero sense. glad to see im not the only one to pick up on it.
    • Kimber88
      Kimber88
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.07.2008 Posts: 1,333
      Originally posted by alejandrosh
      of course is rigged. pokerstars is making so little money with rake that they need your $25 to avoid bankrupsy
      I agree.. but.. If stars NEED those $25 then they would have to make a bot and then rig the deck and then take your maniez.. lmao

      Ruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuunnnn. It's rigged for sure..
    • suvalgysiu
      suvalgysiu
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.06.2007 Posts: 307
      PokerStars and FullTilt are fine. Titan rigs people from western Europe exclusively, while Mansion does this to Puerto Ricans. Absolute poker goes for the high stakers, Carbon poker goes for the NL10 regs money, Pacific doesn't need rig on poker tables, only for the sports bookies games (buying every game for themselves) while OnGame rigs itself, but only on the second Thursday of the following month.

      I hope this clears things up.
    • Waiboy
      Waiboy
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.09.2008 Posts: 4,877
      The answer is this: you are trying to find ways of dealing with losing despite playing as close to optimally as you can, against players that are playing far looser, losing poker.

      You are trying to make sense of that which your brain can't find an answer for... this is how religions start.

      The truth is play as close to optimally that you can, continue to learn and improve, understand that variance is a fundamental part of the game that can last tens of thousands of hands, that if you consistantly play a better standard of game than your opponents, that you will give yourself the best chance of being a winning player at low limit poker.

      Take control dude, don't let your mind try to find answers that aren't there (or if they are, you can't control).

      If you truly believe that any poker site is rigged, your best answer is to give up, because either that belief will prevent you from playing a winning game, or drive you nuts.

      Good luck fella, hope you can get out of your funk.
    • Joronamo
      Joronamo
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.10.2008 Posts: 649
      Originally posted by Waiboy
      The answer is this: you are trying to find ways of dealing with losing despite playing as close to optimally as you can, against players that are playing far looser, losing poker.

      You are trying to make sense of that which your brain can't find an answer for... this is how religions start.

      The truth is play as close to optimally that you can, continue to learn and improve, understand that variance is a fundamental part of the game that can last tens of thousands of hands, that if you consistantly play a better standard of game than your opponents, that you will give yourself the best chance of being a winning player at low limit poker.

      Take control dude, don't let your mind try to find answers that aren't there (or if they are, you can't control).

      If you truly believe that any poker site is rigged, your best answer is to give up, because either that belief will prevent you from playing a winning game, or drive you nuts.

      Good luck fella, hope you can get out of your funk.
      Smart concept with religeon etc. I played a $3.30 w/rebuys tournie today and caem 54th/4000 and won a cool $85. Now my BR is $279. Thing is during the tournament, i noticed it was much more relaxed, 9 out of 10 times the better hand won and there was no crazy shit. In SNGs though there are just so many ridicoulous bad beats. I have a feeling the pokerstars machine has its moodswings and today it was in a good mood:P .
    • opal99
      opal99
      Black
      Joined: 05.02.2008 Posts: 8,270
      Originally posted by Joronamo
      alejrosh and kingdippy, this is not the first time i sensed arrogance from you guys at forums. I have a feeling you dont read the entire post and only pick parts which you can rebutt against.
      Hi Joronamo;

      I'm sorry to say it, but you asked for such comments if you named thread as you did. ;)
      There's no need to be rude.. maybe try to take it as sarcasm.. Some people here are just fed up with such kind of "rigged" threads.

      :spade: Good luck at the tables :spade: