AA vs KK

    • maya1984
      maya1984
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 1,741
      Here are some hands first:

      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      $0.05/$0.1 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)

      Known players:
      MP3:
      $8.90
      CO:
      $1.85
      BU:
      $5.20
      SB:
      $5.55
      BB:
      $4.25
      UTG1(Hero):
      $16.75
      UTG2:
      $10.00
      MP1:
      $11.40
      MP2:
      $1.15

      Preflop: Hero is UTG1 with A, A.
      Hero calls $0.10, UTG2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.5, 5 folds, BB calls $0.40, Hero raises to $1.8, MP1 raises to $11.4(All-In), BB folds, Hero calls $9.60.

      Flop: ($23.35) 8, 3, 4 (2 players)

      Turn: ($23.35) K (2 players)

      River: ($23.35) Q (2 players)

      Final Pot: $23.35.

      Results follow (highlight to see):

      MP1 shows three of a kind, kings (Kc Kd)
      Hero shows a pair of aces (Ad As)
      MP1 wins with three of a kind, kings (Kc Kd).




      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      $0.05/$0.1 No-Limit Hold'em (8 handed)

      Known players:
      MP1:
      $9.90
      MP2:
      $5.35
      MP3:
      $11.45
      CO:
      $16.20
      BU:
      $3.90
      SB:
      $1.20
      BB(Hero):
      $10.00
      UTG2:
      $13.70

      Preflop: Hero is BB with A, A.
      UTG2 raises to $0.4, 2 folds, MP3 calls $0.40, CO calls $0.40, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.6, UTG2 raises to $13.7, 2 folds, Hero calls $8.40(All-In).

      Flop: ($24.55) 9, T, K (2 players)

      Turn: ($24.55) 6 (2 players)

      River: ($24.55) 7 (2 players)

      Final Pot: $24.55.

      Results follow:

      Hero shows a pair of aces (A A)
      UTG2 shows three of a kind, kings (K K)
      UTG2 wins with three of a kind, kings (K K).



      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      $0.05/$0.1 No-Limit Hold'em (8 handed)

      Known players:
      CO:
      $4.95
      BU:
      $0.80
      SB:
      $4.80
      BB:
      $4.00
      UTG2:
      $21.05
      MP1:
      $2.00
      MP2:
      $10.30
      MP3(Hero):
      $11.25

      Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K, K.
      UTG2 raises to $0.4, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.2, CO folds, BU calls $0.80(All-In), 2 folds, UTG2 raises to $4, Hero raises to $11.25(All-In), UTG2 calls $7.25.

      Flop: ($23.45) 9, 2, 4 (3 players)

      Turn: ($23.45) 4 (3 players)

      River: ($23.45) 9 (3 players)

      Final Pot: $23.45.

      Results follow:

      UTG2 shows two pairs, aces and nines (A A)
      BU shows two pairs, nines and fours (A 8)
      Hero shows two pairs, kings and nines (K K)
      UTG2 wins with two pairs, aces and nines (A A).



      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      $0.05/$0.1 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)

      Known players:
      MP3:
      $23.50
      CO:
      $23.85
      BU:
      $10.00
      SB:
      $9.95
      BB(Hero):
      $10.95
      UTG1:
      $10.15
      UTG2:
      $10.15
      MP1:
      $18.40
      MP2:
      $8.25

      Preflop: Hero is BB with K, K.
      UTG1 folds, UTG2 calls $0.10, 2 folds, MP3 raises to $0.4, 3 folds, Hero raises to $1.3, UTG2 folds, MP3 raises to $2.2, Hero raises to $4.8, MP3 raises to $7.4, Hero raises to $10.95(All-In), MP3 calls $3.55.

      Flop: ($22.05) 6, 3, T (2 players)

      Turn: ($22.05) T (2 players)

      River: ($22.05) 7 (2 players)

      Final Pot: $22.05.

      Results follow:

      Hero shows two pairs, kings and tens (K K)
      MP3 shows two pairs, aces and tens (A A)
      MP3 wins with two pairs, aces and tens (A A).



      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      $0.05/$0.1 No-Limit Hold'em (8 handed)

      Known players:
      CO:
      $6.20
      BU:
      $11.35
      SB:
      $11.05
      BB:
      $2.00
      UTG2:
      $1.90
      MP1(Hero):
      $7.90
      MP2:
      $27.10
      MP3:
      $10.25

      Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K, K.
      UTG2 calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.4, 2 folds, CO raises to $1.2, 4 folds, Hero raises to $2.4, CO raises to $3.6, Hero raises to $7.9(All-In), CO calls $2.60(All-In).

      Flop: ($14.35) 4, 6, 3 (2 players)

      Turn: ($14.35) 9 (2 players)

      River: ($14.35) 2 (2 players)

      Final Pot: $14.35.

      Results follow:

      Hero shows a pair of kings (K K)
      CO shows a pair of aces (A A)
      CO wins with a pair of aces (A A).



      And finally my own suckout:

      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      $0.05/$0.1 No-Limit Hold'em (8 handed)

      Known players:
      CO:
      $2.00
      BU:
      $18.45
      SB:
      $5.90
      BB:
      $15.65
      UTG2:
      $2.35
      MP1:
      $20.55
      MP2(Hero):
      $11.10
      MP3:
      $5.10

      Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K, K.
      UTG2 folds, MP1 calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.5, 2 folds, BU raises to $1, SB calls $0.95, BB folds, MP1 calls $0.90, Hero raises to $11.1(All-In), BU raises to $18.45(All-In), SB calls $4.90(All-In), MP1 folds.

      Flop: ($36.55) A, K, 6 (3 players)

      Turn: ($36.55) 6 (3 players)

      River: ($36.55) K (3 players)

      Final Pot: $36.55.

      Results follow:

      Hero shows four of a kind, kings (K K)
      BU shows a full-house, aces full of kings (A A)
      SB shows two pairs, aces and kings (A Q)
      Hero wins with four of a kind, kings (K K).


      I played about 25k hands so far at poker stars (NL10)

      1. So I'm 1-3 with KK vs AA and 0-3 with AA vs KK. Statisticly I should be with a positive balance. I guess that my stats will straighten up in the next 25k hands. :)

      2. When You hold KK ,sometimes you are almost 100% that villain is holding AA.
      All the judges that I talked with them (Fongie,Veriz) told me that I can't fold KK preflop even if it's clear that villain is holding AA because sometimes he will have KK or even QQ or AK. They have much more exeperince then me so I tend to follow their advice even though I find it hard to follow sometimes.
      What is your opinion?
  • 26 replies
    • cyzo
      cyzo
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.07.2008 Posts: 117
      You clearly cannot fold KK even when you are 100% sure that the opponent is holding aces. Based on your stats, you should still be a 100% favorite to win even against aces. Also, AA should be folded preflop, but only if you are over 33% sure than an opponent holds exactly KK.

      Alternately, you could calculate your expected value against the handranges which would put chips into the pot when you hold AA or KK rather than looking at your own statistics and see that the only situation in which you would do anything other than betting/raising at every opportunity would be if you raised preflop with KK, had multiple callers, saw an ace on the flop, and had a pot size of under twice your stacksize.

      I can say for a fact that I get AA or KK ~9 times per hour on pokerstars, and they are two of my top five most profitable hands (+###BB per hundred occurrences).
    • bobdefete
      bobdefete
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.08.2008 Posts: 81
      I had AA today Someone was holding KK, the flop K x K x x :(

      Sick...
    • maya1984
      maya1984
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 1,741
      Originally posted by cyzo
      Also, AA should be folded preflop, but only if you are over 33% sure than an opponent holds exactly KK.
      Fold AA preflop? Sorry, but this sentence doesn't make sense.

      Originally posted by cyzo
      I can say for a fact that I get AA or KK ~9 times per hour on pokerstars, and they are two of my top five most profitable hands (+###BB per hundred occurrences).
      Aces is still my first profitable hand, Kings is third.
    • Dragar
      Dragar
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.09.2008 Posts: 2,214
      KK and AA is always push... no matter what pre-flop action.


      In SH I will also push AK and QQ in most cases.
    • kingdippy2008
      kingdippy2008
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.08.2008 Posts: 2,107
      so what is the point of this thread? You lost AA to KK 3 times? OMG!?!

      [x] variance

      You can never fold KK preflop because then whenever you push preflop people will just fold because they beleive you have AA all the time. You need to balance.
    • maya1984
      maya1984
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 1,741
      Originally posted by kingdippy2008
      so what is the point of this thread? You lost AA to KK 3 times? OMG!?!

      [x] variance
      I actually started this this thread to get people's thoughts about folding KK when you think your opponent hold AA.

      [quote][i]You can never fold KK preflop because then whenever you push preflop people will just fold because they beleive you have AA all the time. You need to balance.[/quote] :)
    • Mstlc
      Mstlc
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.03.2009 Posts: 4,676
      Originally posted by maya1984
      I actually started this this thread to get people's thoughts about folding KK when you think your opponent hold AA.
      Shove anyway... I mean "think", common, if you're 100% sure that he's playing Aces, sure, but can you ever be that certain?

      There's enough people that just shove QQ & AK there or even KQ, JJ or worse. We're talking 10NL here... the average player at this lvl is just bad.

      AA & KK is auto-shove really. Especially at 10NL
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      Originally posted by cyzo
      Also, AA should be folded preflop, but only if you are over 33% sure than an opponent holds exactly KK.


      Fold AA preflop? Sorry, but this sentence doesn't make sense.


      I think he was joking.

      Anyway, I agree with Mstlc. You can never be 100% sure villain has Aces because - if he's playing correctly - he will act the exact same way with Kings so nothing he does should convince you he has Aces.

      If you start getting suspicious and folding KK pf, you will lose huge value over the long term. Your stats will even out soon enough; just be patient.

      ATB,
      Tim
    • cyzo
      cyzo
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.07.2008 Posts: 117
      Originally posted by maya1984
      Originally posted by cyzo
      Also, AA should be folded preflop, but only if you are over 33% sure than an opponent holds exactly KK.
      Fold AA preflop? Sorry, but this sentence doesn't make sense.
      Sorry for the confusion, but I was just poking fun at how ridiculous it is to post hands where you had AA and lost. You are obviously going to go broke at every opportunity, and your worst case scenario is a 50% favorite with a 2% chance of a loss (vs. AA), while being an 85% favorite is average.

      Regarding kings, the advice that everyone has been posting here is correct. Even if you think they have aces, you will usually be far ahead. Just yesterday, I saw two UTG limpers, raised from MP3, saw a call from the BB, fold from UTG1, and a minraise from UTG2. When I shoved and went hu vs UTG 2, I mucked my kings on the river as he revealed... J2o (straight 7-J). Especially at these limits, you will be ahead.
    • Schnitzelfisch
      Schnitzelfisch
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 4,952
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    • slikec
      slikec
      Global
      Joined: 04.02.2008 Posts: 1,155
      What they had :s_frown: ?

      No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

      BB ($16.06)
      Hero (UTG) ($28.36)
      MP ($29.72)
      Button ($7.80)
      SB ($11.87)

      Preflop: Hero is UTG with ,
      MP calls $0.10, Button bets $0.20, 2 folds, Hero raises $1.20, MP raises $3.35, Button raises $5.40, Hero raises $6.45, MP raises $26.27 (All-In), Button calls $2.20 (All-In), Hero calls $20.61 (All-In)

      Flop: ($64.57) , , (3 players, 3 all-in)

      Turn: ($64.57) (3 players, 3 all-in)

      River: ($64.57) (3 players, 3 all-in)

      Total pot: $64.57
    • luitzen
      luitzen
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.04.2009 Posts: 664
      I don't agree. When you're 100% sure someone has AA you should fold KK, no matter what. The only thing is that it's impossible to be 100% sure your opponent holds AA unless you have some magical software.
    • nafar84
      nafar84
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.09.2008 Posts: 546
      Originally posted by luitzen
      I don't agree. When you're 100% sure someone has AA you should fold KK, no matter what. The only thing is that it's impossible to be 100% sure your opponent holds AA unless you have some magical software.
      Sometimes you come across a 6/4 nit with 3bet stat of 0.8%. When I raise Kings and he suddenly wakes up with a 3bet I think "dude... why does it have to be you???", but yeah EVEN then I never fold Kings.
    • maya1984
      maya1984
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 1,741
      Nafar84, may I ask what limit do you play? And does the logic beyond your saying is to due to limit that you play?
      Mathematically folding KK to a 6/4 nit with 0.8% 3bet is not a bad decision since he is 3betting you only with KK and AA.
    • nafar84
      nafar84
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.09.2008 Posts: 546
      Originally posted by maya1984
      Nafar84, may I ask what limit do you play? And does the logic beyond your saying is to due to limit that you play?
      Mathematically folding KK to a 6/4 nit with 0.8% 3bet is not a bad decision since he is 3betting you only with KK and AA.
      Not so much to do with the limit, it's just that most of the time the sample size I have on them is nothing too big so the 0.8% stat can't be too accurate. I just ship it with kings and I don't care what stats they have.
    • MrMardyBum
      MrMardyBum
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.03.2009 Posts: 2,206
      Stupid thread imo..... Kings and Aces, the money is going in simple as that...


      [x] Spamming shark pic makes you look dense.
      [x] Posting that many HH's is overkill.
      [x] End of topic.
    • TheBrood
      TheBrood
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.07.2008 Posts: 4,383
      Originally posted by MrMardyBum
      Stupid thread imo..... Kings and Aces, the money is going in simple as that...


      [x] Spamming shark pic makes you look dense.
      [x] Posting that many HH's is overkill.
      [x] End of topic.
      This post combined with your username made me laugh.
    • qwery1
      qwery1
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.05.2008 Posts: 356
      Originally posted by maya1984
      I actually started this this thread to get people's thoughts about folding KK when you think your opponent hold AA.
      If you want think, think about that. Matematically its no difference between AA vs KK or AA vs 22 heads up all in.

      And another: Poker is game of incomplete information. You dont play against exact hand, you play against ranges of hands. This mixed up whole think. Better post is KK vs range AA,KK,AK,AKs,QQ and in this I am very conservative I think.

      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/video/2319
    • TheBrood
      TheBrood
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.07.2008 Posts: 4,383
      Whenever you fold KK pf you are losing money every time he doesnt have AA. Even if he has AA you can still suckout.
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