[NL20-NL50] PL25 - KK in UTG (setting trap)

    • jotap27
      jotap27
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.03.2007 Posts: 107
      Hi Guys,

      I was playing PL25. The table was very loose, so i decided to set a trap with my KK. I was sure that someone would make a raise, so i limped.

      0,1/0,25 Pot-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: PokerStrategy Elephant 0.67 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

      Preflop: Hero is UTG1 with K:diamond: , K:heart:
      Hero calls $0,25, UTG2 raises to $1,10, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $1,10, MP3 folds, CO calls $1,10, 3 folds,

      So, as i had predicted, it was time to re-raise the pot:


      Hero raises to $5,85, UTG2 calls $4,75, MP2 folds,

      i was suprised by the re-raise of some a very loose guy in Co after the call of UTG2:

      CO raises to $24,85, Hero raises to $27,84 (All-In), UTG2 folds, CO calls $2,99.

      I went all in. What do you guys think of this move ?

      PS: I will later make more comments on this and show the flop,turn and river. But first i want to know your opinion about this. Thanks.
  • 8 replies
    • darkonebg
      darkonebg
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 17.01.2008 Posts: 9,508
      Hello,
      I like your way of presenting the hand :) .Anyway, as professionals we are not result oriented,and thus able to concentrate on every street and factor the details in order to decide the optimal way to play, so you can post your whole hands at once.Here the board cards/results dont matter, as all the decisions were taken preflop.
      About the information until now.I assume we dont have stats.A loose table simply isnt enough for a limp/3bet from UTG. You need a Loose aggressive opposition, that will raise and not fold to your monster line( since it really is pretty much obvious to any normal player). Thats why this move is reserved
      for when there is a maniac on the table. Against loose-passive opponents it wont work, since it will get limped around and you will play a multiway unraised pot with your KK, something you dont want to.
      CO line doesnt look trappy, its more or less a middle pocket pair that wanted to see the flop for free and is now hoping for a flip against two overs.You will see AA sometimes, but that would be the outcome in the normal case scenario also.
      As a general advice, dont fold KK preflop on this limits for 100BB effective.

      Best regards,
      darkonebg

      [size=10]If you have any further questions about this hand,
      dont hesitate to ask them in this thread,
      and dont forget to click the "Advise the judge of taking another look " button in the reply form.[/size]
    • jotap27
      jotap27
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.03.2007 Posts: 107
      darkonebg,

      Thanks you for your answer. About the stats on my opponents, unfortunetly, i don't recall them.

      I never thought in folding my KK. But notice that after UTG2 raises to $1,10, we have 2 more opponents calling that raise.. Can't we wonder that the other 3 opponents my be holding, AQ, AK or 2 of them AK ? Can we analyse that, an opponent holding a middle pocket pair has more odds of hitting trips and winning the hand than my Kings ??

      Waiting your answer....
      JP

      PS: I understand why we must not be result oriented...
    • darkonebg
      darkonebg
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 17.01.2008 Posts: 9,508
      Hello,
      Well at a loose game you can pretty much put them equally on weak aces or mid pairs themselves, not to rule out the possibility of the CO having Kx himself. In the worst case scenario(besides him having aces), two of the other guys will fold Kx hands , your equity against hands you dominate - Ax and lower pockets decreases by only 3% , something you could totally ignore.
      While this would be true for AK type of hands ( drawing), KK is a made hand, the second in strenght and such considerations shouldn't be made.
      You can use the Equilator to make such simulations, with supposedly "dead" cards and so on.
      PS Please use " advice the judge to take another look" button, whenever you want additional input

      Best regards,
      darkonebg

      [size=10]If you have any further questions about this hand,
      dont hesitate to ask them in this thread,
      and dont forget to click the "Advise the judge of taking another look " button in the reply form.[/size]
    • LemOn36
      LemOn36
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 07.02.2009 Posts: 1,419
      way to turn your hand face up
    • jotap27
      jotap27
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.03.2007 Posts: 107
      Hi darkonebg,

      I don't know if i made myself clear on previous post:

      Imagine that all the other 3 players have AK ,KQ and 99.

      The AK and KQ fold and the nines call.

      My equity only decreases by 3% ? only that ?

      Regards
      JP
    • darkonebg
      darkonebg
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 17.01.2008 Posts: 9,508
      Hello,
      You made yourself totally clear and this is exactly the situation I explained.
      While I cant explain why the equity is decreased only by 3%, it is a mathematical fact that is purely logical, as you have a made hand and it is your opponent that needs help. Only in 1,7% of the cases you will both get sets until the river, so your K outs dont play that much. I suppose the additional percentages come from the decreased probability of you making a straight or countering his made straight with a FH(KTJQQ board for example).

      As I already mentioned, the easiest way to check this out is to use the PokerStrategy Equilator.There would be small differences in the percentages depending on if you cover two of his cards in terms of suits, only one or none, but as I said all this differences are so small that you can easily ignore them.

      Board:
      Dead: Ac Ks Kc Qs

      Equity Win Tie Loss Hand
      Player 1: 75.981 % 75.762 % 0.438 % 23.800 % KhKd
      Player 2: 24.019 % 23.800 % 0.438 % 75.762 % 9d9c

      Board:
      Dead:

      Equity Win Tie Loss Hand
      Player 1: 78.819 % 80.623 % 0.392 % 18.985 % KhKd
      Player 2: 22.181 % 18.985 % 0.392 % 80.623 % 9d9c





      Please use the advise the judge to take another look button when you need additional output, otherwise your question will be unanswered If I happen to miss the thread .
      Best regards,
      darkonebg

      [size=10]If you have any further questions about this hand,
      dont hesitate to ask them in this thread,
      and dont forget to click the "Advise the judge of taking another look " button in the reply form.[/size]
    • jotap27
      jotap27
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.03.2007 Posts: 107
      Thank you for your explanation.

      I know the result is not important, but i leave here the rest of the hand (just for the record):

      Flop: ($62,98) 7:spade: , 8:spade: , 6:spade:
      Turn: ($62,98) 9:diamond:
      River: ($62,98) 8:club: (1 players)


      Final Pot: $62,98

      Results follow:
      Hero shows two pairs, kings and eights (Kd Kh)[/COLOR]
      CO shows four of a kind, eights (8d 8h)[/COLOR]

      CO wins with four of a kind, eights (8d 8h)[/COLOR]

      And Yes, you made the right read. The CO was holding a "middle pocket pair that wanted to see the flop for free and is now hoping for a flip against two overs..."
    • darkonebg
      darkonebg
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 17.01.2008 Posts: 9,508
      Hello,
      It happenes every once in a while, but this types of opponents are very profitable in the long run.

      Best regards,
      darkonebg

      [size=10]If you have any further questions about this hand,
      dont hesitate to ask them in this thread,
      and dont forget to click the "Advise the judge of taking another look " button in the reply form.[/size]