How to play QQ NL SH preflop

    • silent21
      silent21
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      Joined: 08.08.2008 Posts: 1,556
      Fongie :

      don't ever 3bet with QQ if you're planning to fold to a 4bet. If you know you can't stand a 4bet with a good hand like QQ, then just call preflop and play postflop. Same reason why I wouldnt 3bet JJ or AQ if I expect my opponent to only fold or 4bet with better hands.

      Can someone give me better explanation for this. How am i supposed to play vs 20/17 tag players with 3%4bet which is always ahead vs QQ basically. Also there are hundreds of players who raise pf wide range but 4bet only with QQ+ so again i should not 3bet??? This sentence "don't ever 3bet with QQ if you're planning to fold to a 4bet." is not realistic or maybe i just dont understand the theory behind it.

      Thanks you
  • 19 replies
    • Jumbles
      Jumbles
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.10.2007 Posts: 190
      Originally posted by silent21
      Can someone give me better explanation for this. How am i supposed to play vs 20/17 tag players with 3%4bet which is always ahead vs QQ basically.
      Are you sure about that? Did you run some numbers?
    • Kruppe
      Kruppe
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      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 2,144
      just 3bet QQ and you will constantly get called by worse hands. depending on positions and shit of course you can fold to tight 4bettors.

      just to cölarify: saying you should only 3bet value hands like QQ if you won't fold to a 4bet, i.e. if you won't go broke, is bullshit.

      and players who either 4bet or fold but never flat-call a 3bet are very rare.
    • silent21
      silent21
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      Joined: 08.08.2008 Posts: 1,556
      Originally posted by Jumbles
      Originally posted by silent21
      Can someone give me better explanation for this. How am i supposed to play vs 20/17 tag players with 3%4bet which is always ahead vs QQ basically.
      Are you sure about that? Did you run some numbers?
      my point was that nowadays there are alot of players who raise about 15-20% of their range but they will 4bet only 2-3 percent of this range. if i will stick to the "rule" by Fongie this means to flat call with QQ against such people. ( i am playing NL25 so i cant talk for the higher limits)

      personally i would 3bet almost everyone with QQ, probably except some complete nit in UTG. if there are 4bets i rely on the notes and ofcourse stats...
    • maya1984
      maya1984
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      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 1,741
      Originally posted by silent21
      Fongie :

      don't ever 3bet with QQ if you're planning to fold to a 4bet. If you know you can't stand a 4bet with a good hand like QQ, then just call preflop and play postflop. Same reason why I wouldnt 3bet JJ or AQ if I expect my opponent to only fold or 4bet with better hands.

      Can someone give me better explanation for this. How am i supposed to play vs 20/17 tag players with 3%4bet which is always ahead vs QQ basically. Also there are hundreds of players who raise pf wide range but 4bet only with QQ+ so again i should not 3bet??? This sentence "don't ever 3bet with QQ if you're planning to fold to a 4bet." is not realistic or maybe i just dont understand the theory behind it.

      Thanks you
      Imo you can't make a finger rule for 3betting QQ. I think the decesion should be opponent dependent but I would like to hear Fongie's explanation.
    • csnmf
      csnmf
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      Joined: 22.11.2006 Posts: 444
      The fold to 3 bet stat is pretty important in this, in an extreme example if somone never folds to a 3bet then you can have an extremely large 3 bet for value range as he is calling with alot worse.

      Using the example of a 20/17 tag lets say he has a PFR from button of 30 if he is calling 3bets with that entire 30% so even 3 betting a hand like A10 can be for value as he is still calling alot of dominated Aces and 10s.

      If in the other extreme he either 4 bets or folds, now it makes more sense to 3 bet with your trash and just call with your strong hands to keep in those dominated hands. As why 3bet AQ when he is never calling with worse, it's better to just call AQ and keep in all those domninated hands like AJ and worse, KQ, QJ Q10 etc.

      So in the case of a 14/12 guy raising UTG who either folds or 4bets, 3 betting him doesn't make much sense you are just isolating yourself against a range that has you crushed.

      Although in reality i am 3 betting 99.9% of people with QQ and the only tim e i would ever consider folding it is if UTG opened i 3bet from the blinds and he 4bets me and he has the kind of stats that would suggest QQ+ and not even AK but as argued before in this rare case you probably shouldn't have 3bet in the first place.
    • Fongie
      Fongie
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      Joined: 02.12.2006 Posts: 4,978
      Glad I saw this :tongue:

      Sorry I wasn't clear enough!
      The problem with 3betting with QQ and folding to a 4bet is that you're raising only for fold equity, and if youre only raising for fold equity why not pick 72o to do it? If you're playing against a guy who ONLY folds to 3bet or 4bets, and you know (you must really know this) that he only 4bets AA and KK for example, then you can make much more money from him by flatting QQ preflop and playing postflop, because QQ has really good equity against his open raising range. That way you can make a little money preflop with hands like suited connectors, suited aces, w/e hand you decide to 3bet against him, and make a lot of money from him postflop against his open raising range with your QQ.

      I hope that explains why flatting QQ is better against guys who only 4bet or folds against 3bets preflop. The problem with this statement is that you will have a very hard time collecting enough reads and stats to go with it, however if I have ~2k hands on some guy and he plays 13/10, 3bets 1% and never ever has called a 3bet, then I'll happily flat QQ against him.

      As to your other question, how you should react to 20/17 tag players with 3% 4bet... Well, I will gladly ship it all in :tongue:
      Why?
      Equilate it :) QQ has 47% equity against a 3% range. If you add that I will expect them to 4bet bluff once in a while, and you're good to go against their 4betting range with the money already in the pot. And if you also add that they can call your 3bet some times, then I hope you understand why we 3bet/shove QQ against most opponents? Simply because we're ahead of their calling ranges and we have equity to go broke against them when they 4bet.


      just to cölarify: saying you should only 3bet value hands like QQ if you won't fold to a 4bet, i.e. if you won't go broke, is bullshit.
      Care to give any reasons at all or are you just going to make a bold statement and run? ;) I hate it when people reply to a post without giving any reasons for what they say..
    • Dragar
      Dragar
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      Joined: 09.09.2008 Posts: 2,214
      Uhm..... ok you have to go broke with QQ.

      Why?

      Well because if you flat him A or K high flop, you have a tough choice.
      If under cards come you have a tough choice.

      If you just call without going broke your setmining with QQ in a big pot, really sucks.


      Please someone explain to me how you will not play for your stack when the flop is 589 and you hold QQ after flatting villain and villain bets... what you think he has KK now and you fold? Why not fold pre then?


      Look there are some pretty good give aways for AA.... villain 4-bets the minimum. He won't do that with AK and probably not with KK, that "confident" bet comes from AA.
      Insta push after 3-bet means QQ or AK. It rarely is AA, sometimes KK.
    • silent21
      silent21
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      Joined: 08.08.2008 Posts: 1,556
      Originally posted by Fongie
      If you're playing against a guy who ONLY folds to 3bet or 4bets, and you know (you must really know this) that he only 4bets AA and KK for example, then you can make much more money from him by flatting QQ preflop and playing postflop,
      imo by flat calling with QQ i can be in very ugly spot on the flop.

      if flop is 3 undercards and villain show resistance i have no idea where i stand - set, overpair, bigger overpair than QQ

      if flop is A/Kxx and villain cbets/second barrels and etc... again i am not sure where i stand.

      i want to say again that i am playing NL25. Isnt it better to either stack some fish with QQ PF or just to 3bet/fold against a nit 4bettor. Or at least variance will be lower much i think.
    • Jumbles
      Jumbles
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      Joined: 06.10.2007 Posts: 190
      My guess is you're more worried about variance than profitability.

      Do keep trying to get more comfortable with the idea though.
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      My advice, if you're looking for a hard and fast rule, is to ship it with QQ pf at the level you're playing.

      You're up against A,Q A,J A,K T,T J,J, lower pps, or even just suited Aces too often to fold QQ to 4-betting opponents who are often just 'gambling' on hitting the flop.

      In very rare occasions I might fold to a super tight opponent open min-raising from UTG, but I'd really need to be convinced by stats with a decent sample size first. The main point is that we don't want to be folding the best hand pre-flop because we lose money that way. And QQ is - almost always - the best hand.

      ATB,
      Tim

      p.s. That said, I like Fongies explation and reasoning. I think it may be more applicable at higher limits, though.
    • Fongie
      Fongie
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      Joined: 02.12.2006 Posts: 4,978
      Originally posted by silent21

      imo by flat calling with QQ i can be in very ugly spot on the flop.
      Well then if you are not comfortable postflop then don't do it. However, be sure that against that particular opponent, you'll be missing a lot of value if you 3bet/fold QQ, because you just turned your QQ (arguably the 3rd best hand in poker) into a bluff only to win a 4bb open raise + blinds. Also, remember that in general the most money is made postflop, not preflop... so being a good player postflop is maybe something you should work on :)

      However, as many point out, in reality you don't come across that type of opponent often, and as a rule you should just 3bet and go broke with your QQ.
    • csnmf
      csnmf
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      Joined: 22.11.2006 Posts: 444
      Originally posted by Fongie
      Also, remember that in general the most money is made postflop, not preflop... so being a good player postflop is maybe something you should work on :)

      So True, every player especially on PS should remember this, as it has become rather in fashion to 3bet everything nowadays, which although obviously +EV might not be the most EV thing to do.
    • mrjorisa
      mrjorisa
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      Joined: 30.03.2008 Posts: 200
      fold versus tight villain 3betting

      4bet & get ready to ship it against fish
    • Kruppe
      Kruppe
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      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 2,144
      Originally posted by Fongie
      Glad I saw this :tongue:

      Sorry I wasn't clear enough!
      The problem with 3betting with QQ and folding to a 4bet is that you're raising only for fold equity, and if youre only raising for fold equity why not pick 72o to do it? If you're playing against a guy who ONLY folds to 3bet or 4bets, and you know (you must really know this) that he only 4bets AA and KK for example, then you can make much more money from him by flatting QQ preflop and playing postflop, because QQ has really good equity against his open raising range. That way you can make a little money preflop with hands like suited connectors, suited aces, w/e hand you decide to 3bet against him, and make a lot of money from him postflop against his open raising range with your QQ.

      I hope that explains why flatting QQ is better against guys who only 4bet or folds against 3bets preflop. The problem with this statement is that you will have a very hard time collecting enough reads and stats to go with it, however if I have ~2k hands on some guy and he plays 13/10, 3bets 1% and never ever has called a 3bet, then I'll happily flat QQ against him.

      As to your other question, how you should react to 20/17 tag players with 3% 4bet... Well, I will gladly ship it all in :tongue:
      Why?
      Equilate it :) QQ has 47% equity against a 3% range. If you add that I will expect them to 4bet bluff once in a while, and you're good to go against their 4betting range with the money already in the pot. And if you also add that they can call your 3bet some times, then I hope you understand why we 3bet/shove QQ against most opponents? Simply because we're ahead of their calling ranges and we have equity to go broke against them when they 4bet.


      just to cölarify: saying you should only 3bet value hands like QQ if you won't fold to a 4bet, i.e. if you won't go broke, is bullshit.
      Care to give any reasons at all or are you just going to make a bold statement and run? ;) I hate it when people reply to a post without giving any reasons for what they say..

      i was trying to give good advice, and i hate it when i see other people giving terrible advice. i believe i did give reasons in the rest of my post, but the big problem is that the person originally giving the 'don't 3bet if you can't call a 4bet' advice doesn't give any reasons for this statement. if i see a statement i believe to be false and i see that no justification for the statement is provided, then the person making the statement has to provide justification if we want to continue a rational discussion, and i don't have to give reasons for critisising his statement other than the fact that he hasn't justified it. i wasn't making a bold statement, i was criticising a bold statement.
    • Kruppe
      Kruppe
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      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 2,144
      Originally posted by Fongie

      The problem with 3betting with QQ and folding to a 4bet is that you're raising only for fold equity
      that's false. you mostly 3bet to get called by a ton of worse hands and get value out of these(unless of course villain never calls 3bets. wtf?). i'm not going to read the rest.
    • Fongie
      Fongie
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      Joined: 02.12.2006 Posts: 4,978
      Originally posted by Kruppe


      that's false. you mostly 3bet to get called by a ton of worse hands and get value out of these(unless of course villain never calls 3bets. wtf?). i'm not going to read the rest.
      Well then that is why you fail, because if you look at the very next sentence in both the original post and my reply here, you will no doubt find the words "If you're playing against a guy who ONLY folds to 3bet or 4bets", which is kind of the basis for the whole post, and removes your only argument for 3bet/folding against this guy. So please, avoid making a fool out of yourself by reading the whole post next time ;)
    • Kruppe
      Kruppe
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      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 2,144
      you don't need to turn this into a personal insult battle... silent was (at least in part) talking about 'don't ever 3bet with QQ if you're planning to fold to a 4bet.', and i was too.
    • Fongie
      Fongie
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      Joined: 02.12.2006 Posts: 4,978
      Originally posted by Kruppe
      you don't need to turn this into a personal insult battle...
      Well, then don't start off by replying with 1 sentence including saying what I say is bullshit ;)

      Silent was talking about something I said in my evaluation so I should know what we're discussing... while you perhaps should make it a habit to read the whole post before replying
      i'm not going to read the rest.
      :rolleyes:

      As to the problem in question, I also simply believe that when we 3bet QQ we are pot commited against any normal shoving range on nl25 - and I am also happy to get it in with QQ. In reality, you aren't doing much wrong if you always 3bet/broke with QQ.
    • Kruppe
      Kruppe
      Black
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 2,144
      ok, now it's clear why you are so interested in this. saying that something is bullshit isn't meant as a personal attack. some statements are bullshit and some aren't, and that usually has nothing to do with who stated them.