[NL2-NL10] Experiments with a full stack (3 hands, NL10)

    • howard182
      howard182
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.10.2006 Posts: 416
      I've been itching to play full stacked for a while but haven't had access to the relevant strategy articles because of the points list problem, so I waited. At least until a couple of days ago after some... variance at short stacked NL50 combined with the unease I've had from the beginning at leaving profitable tables convinced me that dropping back a bit and using what I've been able to discover independently with a full stack shouldn't be too harmful to my bankroll, which it hasn't.

      It hasn't yet been terribly profitable either though, and while some of this may be due to normal variance and everyone choosing the hands in which I got dealt aces to suddenly turn tight (even to the extent of folding straight from UTG to SB with me in the BB with aces), I would probably benefit from criticism of a few hands.

      1. No read on the villain, although I developed one later. The river call was intended to cut my losses if I was behind, which certainly seemed possible, and he fold anything that beats me to a raise with the way I played this hand.

      Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

      MP1 ($9.75)
      Hero ($10.25)
      MP3 ($12.32)
      CO ($6.07)
      Button ($1.98)
      SB ($8.45)
      BB ($16.25)
      UTG ($10.72)
      UTG+1 ($11.95)

      Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K:heart: , J:spade: .
      [color:#666666]1 fold[/color], UTG+1 calls $0.10, [color:#666666]1 fold[/color], Hero calls $0.10, [color:#666666]1 fold[/color], CO calls $0.10, [color:#666666]1 fold[/color], SB completes, BB checks.

      Flop: ($0.50) 5:club: , J:heart: , K:club: [color:#0000FF](5 players)[/color]
      SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, [color:#CC3333]Hero bets $0.4[/color], CO folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls $0.40.

      Turn: ($1.30) 2:diamond: [color:#0000FF](2 players)[/color]
      [color:#CC3333]UTG+1 bets $0.5[/color], [color:#CC3333]Hero raises to $1.5[/color], UTG+1 calls $1.

      River: ($4.30) T:club: [color:#0000FF](2 players)[/color]
      [color:#CC3333]UTG+1 bets $1[/color], Hero calls $1.

      Final Pot: $6.30

      2. This villain just sat down, so I couldn't say that he's crazy yet. There's little point in pretending that he didn't have aces given that I chose to post this hand, so the question is whether calling all-ins like these from an unknown with kings is +EV, and whether calling them from known sane (and tight) players is a significant leak.

      Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

      UTG+2 ($5.25)
      MP1 ($10.30)
      MP2 ($17.30)
      MP3 ($12.40)
      CO ($1.90)
      Button ($1.75)
      Hero ($10)
      BB ($20.30)
      UTG ($12.37)
      UTG+1 ($2.45)

      Preflop: Hero is SB with K:diamond: , K:spade: .
      UTG calls $0.10, [color:#666666]4 folds[/color], [color:#CC3333]MP3 raises to $0.4[/color], [color:#666666]2 folds[/color], [color:#CC3333]Hero raises to $1.2[/color], BB calls $1.10, UTG folds, [color:#CC3333]MP3 raises to $12.4 (All-In)[/color], Hero calls $8.80 (All-In), BB folds.

      Final Pot: $23.70

      3. Villain is loose aggressive (as is to be expected in heads up), but particuarly so with flush draws, which is what I have him on in this hand, and much less so with good made hands. (Maybe staying when the table's population dwindled wasn't the best idea, but there were some utterly insane players around and I wanted a piece of that. Which I got, although not quite as much as I liked.)

      Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (2 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

      Button ($14.40)
      Hero ($35.04)

      Preflop: Hero is BB with A:club: , Q:heart: . Button posts a blind of $0.10.
      [color:#CC3333]Hero raises to $0.4[/color], Button (poster) calls $0.30.

      Flop: ($0.80) Q:club: , A:diamond: , 5:diamond: [color:#0000FF](2 players)[/color]
      [color:#CC3333]Hero bets $0.6[/color], [color:#CC3333]Button raises to $1.2[/color], [color:#CC3333]Hero raises to $3.1[/color], Button calls $1.90.

      Turn: ($7) 4:heart: [color:#0000FF](2 players)[/color]
      [color:#CC3333]Hero bets $4[/color], [color:#CC3333]Button raises to $10.9 (All-In)[/color], Hero calls $6.90.

      Final Pot: $28.80
  • 7 replies
    • Alaton
      Alaton
      Black
      Joined: 21.02.2006 Posts: 1,472
      Hand 1:

      Try to stick to the Starting Hand Chart, it may sometimes be boring but saves you from a lot of trouble and will help you earn money much faster.
      KJo in middle Position is a clear fold preflop.(even KJs is)

      Flop is ok, you could bet up to 0,50$ here of course to protect against the flushdraw, but 0,40$ is also fine.

      On the Turn you should raise Potsize here, which would be 2,3$ in this case, offering him odds of 1:2,3.
      With your raise to 1,5$, you gave him much better odds of 1:3,3.
      If he presumes getting 2$ from you on the river if he hits his flush, he's doing the right thing in calling here. And this isn't what you want, so raise Potsize, you need to protect here!!
      River is ok, you get odds of 1:5,3 meaning you only have to win 19% of your hands here, he could well have KQ or some other toppair, middlepair or worse two pair stuff.


      Hand 2:

      This really is a nobrainer call against an unknown opponent, you shouldn't worry about putting your money in with Kings. NL10$ has people going Allin with AJ+, TT+ and you are a solid favorite against any of this hands (except AA of course).
      Putting your opponent on Aces here is totally impossible and don't try to outsmart yourself and lay down Kings and have your opponent show down AK or some stuff..
      Even against tight players, calling is nearly always the right play.
      Laying down Kings preflop is such an exception, which can only be made with ~90% certainty our opponent has aces, because we lose a lot of value laying down kings against a worse hand!

      Hand 3:

      Well played I would say, Raise a bit more on the flop, 3,70$ instead of 3,10$ perhaps. And bet out like 5$ on the turn, as you said you put him on a flushdraw, so let him make the bad play calling you.
      Going all-in with top-twopair in headsup is practically a no-brainer in my opinion.
    • howard182
      howard182
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.10.2006 Posts: 416
      KJ's not a very playable hand, I know, and when I do play it (certainly not as often as you might think from my post!) I am very careful not to make expensive errors. I was neglecting position a little at that table and thus playing too many hands. One basic fact that had somehow failed to register among much deliberation about odds and such is that a bet saved will be reflected as a bet earned on your win rate, a very good reason to stay tight unless you are certain that you can win more on loose play. And if he thinks he's getting a full $2 out of me on average on the river for that pot, he'll be disappointed, but I may reconsider making pot sized bets/raises more often, it's just that I've found very few players at these limits willing to call them without a monster.

      The worry about aces was specifically because of the raise straight from $1.2 to $12.4; the sheer impatience to get his whole stack in (the action was also performed without a hint of hesitation) speaks of aces and nothing else other than a special kind of insanity. That said, it's still a long shot from certainty and (as you said) kings is such a strong favourite against the other hands he might have had, thus the call. But I still find it hard to make that call when I'm maybe 80% sure he's holding aces and hope that some day I'll know when to lay down my kings and that the answer won't be never, as effectively getting stacked preflop is quite demoralising.

      I'm rather hoping that the much delayed update will finally happen this week and that I'll be able to explore more of the strategy articles here, but I've picked up the widely recommended Theory of Poker today so I've got some reading matter to better define my thought processes in play whether it does or not.
    • Alaton
      Alaton
      Black
      Joined: 21.02.2006 Posts: 1,472
      Are you sure you wouldn't have called a 2$ river bet here ?
      And even through calling 1$ our opponent didn't make a really big mistake here and we want him to make bigger mistakes than that. And believe me, they will make these mistakes. He couldve well had KQ or other hands which he would never lay down vs your raise.

      Tight play is by far the best way to play for most players from beginners to rookies and also the easiest way to learn poker.

      I understand your bad feeling facing such a certain raise but as you agreed to me, laying down kings here is a mistake.

      Reading and learning is a big part of poker so better start early then too late :)

      Good Luck!
    • howard182
      howard182
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.10.2006 Posts: 416
      Actually, the whole hand was a huge mistake for him. He showed top pair with 9 kicker, no clubs. But I think I agree that I should work on magnifying these mistakes, I may be giving my opponents too much credit.
    • howard182
      howard182
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.10.2006 Posts: 416
      The initial effect of further study, or rather associated attempts at overly fancy plays, has been me donking off 4 whole buy ins in record time. Not a great start, but the extra knowledge can only be beneficial in the long term.
    • Alaton
      Alaton
      Black
      Joined: 21.02.2006 Posts: 1,472
      Originally posted by howard182
      The initial effect of further study, or rather associated attempts at overly fancy plays, has been me donking off 4 whole buy ins in record time. Not a great start, but the extra knowledge can only be beneficial in the long term.
      Post hands in which you were unsure of your play!

      If you were tilting:
      Try to right down the amount lost to a "known" bad call of you while being in a session, it helps to keep me from making even more mistakes.
      After each session, add it up and you will realize how much bad plays affect your winrate overall!
      This approach helped me to stay focused while playing.

      Good Luck!
    • howard182
      howard182
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.10.2006 Posts: 416
      I understand what I did wrong in the hands from the beginning of that session, there's really nothing to ask about them. I was just confusing myself, I wasn't on tilt and I started winning it back as soon as I reverted to basic poker, although there was a real danger of that later when an opponent caught two pair after the money went in, cracking my aces (which is fine by me; he made a mistake that I'd profit from most of the time) then I got dealt aces again just two hands later and only managed to pick up the blinds (which really pissed me off).

      Recording the total effect of bad plays on a session sounds like a good idea although I think I'm already doing it quite efficiently in my head.